Bizzare Mechanical Noise

[Duncan Elliott]

Hi,

I have recently had my high torque starter out due to an electrical short problem (Now Fixed)- bolted the starter up exactly as before

With the thin shim.

 

Now when I start the car it makes a loud mechanical constant whine like something is catching the flywheel or something mechanical - after a couple of seconds

the whine goes away, but when the clutch pedal is even slightly pressed the whine comes back. It's quite loud too.

 

Has anyone come across this before or any ideas what it could be ??

 

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

Thanks

[88V8]

Starter out again, I fear, look for signs of contact with flywheel. It only needs a thou or two.

 

Ivor

[RogerH]

As Ivor says it looks like starter out again.

The clutch pedal is the clue.

As you press it, it moves the flywheel forward making the starter ring touch the starter drive dog.

Perhaps too much float on the crank

Another shim may/should remove the noise.

 

 

Roger

[peterm]

Hi Folks,

 

Sorry that I can't help with the above problem. But I have a question. As my HT starter on my 3A, (Edge from Cambridge Motorsport) do'es not have a shim, do I presume, depending on flywheel/ring gear fitment, that all HT starters are different. Or, are the problems created by mixing and matching older engines with later/lightweight types of flywheels and ring gears?

 

Cheers, peterm

[KnightsT]

Had the same problem - discussed in a recent thread that I cannot now find!!

 

I had not fitted the shim to my new HT motor (because I never knew there was one as it was still stuck in all the gunk on my old starter motor!) and had the same sound as you - distinctly coming from the flywheel area - although mine tended to appear only as the engine warmed up. I removed the HT and measured the gaps and concluded that while there was jjjuuust enough in theory I would put the shim back, and up to now the problem is solved (the car has not had much use since as it is away having a hood fitted to complete the resto)

 

So as 88V8 says it only needs a thou or two, so I'd try a second shim.

[Duncan Elliott]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I have tried the second shim and even a third - Dont get the noise when the motor starts up now but it's still present when the clutch pedal is pressed even slightly. The noise does not go away when the pedal is pushed all the way in either.

 

It sounds like it is coming from the opposite side of the block from where the starter is too - have uploaded an AVI to YouTube. Any further ideas ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks

[88V8]

Gosh.

All you need is an electric organ and you'll have your own Popular Music Combo.

 

How much endfloat on the crank?

 

If you have a starting handle or can bump it, does it make the noise with no starter on?

 

Ivor

[Duncan Elliott]

I am unable to start it without the starter - I would have thought it would have been a gradual thing

if it was crank related?? Would it not be constant too if it was the crank ??

 

It only just started since I have had the starter out - it's got me flummoxed

 

The noise starts even when you put the slightest pressure on the clutch pedal. I cant see anything obvious under there either.

 

Thanks

[Tony Millward]

I am unable to start it without the starter - I would have thought it would have been a gradual thing

if it was crank related?? Would it not be constant too if it was the crank ??

 

It only just started since I have had the starter out - it's got me flummoxed

 

The noise starts even when you put the slightest pressure on the clutch pedal. I cant see anything obvious under there either.

 

Thanks

 

 

You could start the car with the starter motor and then remove it completely or just enough to back it off from the flywheel to see if the noise goes away. That noise is terrible and I would agree with the previous comments regarding crank end float in that you have some.

 

Tony

[RogerH]

Hi Duncan,

you may have two faults - Starter motor and clutch.

The SM is now sorted with the shims.

The clutch bearing may be going duff or the fingers on the clutch cover being eaten away.

 

If you have no/minimal crank end float then you need to somehow get in and have a look at the clutch.

 

Roger

[Duncan Elliott]

Just found this article - Looks like its time to drop the gearbox

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

I started the engine again, pressed on the clutch pedal, and this is where my thrust washer trouble began. When I pressed on the clutch pedal, I heard a loud grinding noise. I quickly removed my foot from the clutch pedal, and the noise went away. When I pressed on the clutch pedal again noise returned. After listening closely I decided the sound had to be coming from the bell housing area, and felt it must have something to do with the clutch. So I spent the next few days removing the transmission to determine what was going on inside.

 

After carefully inspecting everything inside the bell housing, I couldn't find anything obviously wrong, but since I was already there, I decided to replace the clutch, throwout bearing, and make some other recommended improvements. After the job was complete, I started the car again and pressed on the clutch pedal, and to my dismay, the same grinding noise was still present. It was obvious the noise must be coming from somewhere else.

 

After doing some more research, I learned about a potential problem with the crankshaft thrust washer, that is often overlooked with these cars. This little thrust washer plays an important role by keeping the crankshaft from moving in either axial direction, and keeps the crankshaft aligned with all of the other engine parts. Whenever the clutch pedal is pressed to the floor while the driver of the car shifts gears, the action forces the spinning crankshaft to come into contact with the relatively small thrust washer. When the two surfaces meet, there is a lot of friction that ultimately causes wear. Unfortunately, once this thin copper surface wears through, the steel crankshaft begins ginding away at the bare steel thrust washer, and rapid wear results. The thrust washer is supposed to be replaced at regular intervals to keep this from happening, but this service interval is commonly ignored.

 

I performed a simple crankshaft end float check, and this determined that I had a problem with my thrust washer. I drained the oil and removed the oil pan, and found both front and rear thrust washers laying in the bottom of the pan. The rear thrust washer had worn so badly, that it was too thin to stay in its nesting place. Due to the excessive movement, the front thrust washer was able to work its way out of its nesting place. Now that there were no thrust washers in place, whenever the clutch pedal was pressed, the crankshaft continued to wear into the side of the bearning journal end cap, and the wear eventually progressed to the point that the flywheel teeth were able to come in contact with the starter gear, thus making the awful grinding noise.

[88V8]

Just found this article - Looks like its time to drop the gearbox

 

....the crankshaft thrust washer,..... The thrust washer is supposed to be replaced at regular intervals to keep this from happening, but this service interval is commonly ignored.

I performed a simple crankshaft end float check, and this determined that I had a problem with my thrust washer. I drained the oil and removed the oil pan, .... [/quote]

 

For 'pan' read 'sump'.

 

Fortunately, it's part of the engine, not the gearbox. In the Brown Bible there is a section on thrust washers, and the endfloat limits which you can measure with a dti. Indeed, must measure with a dti otherwise you won't know what thickness of washer to order to restore the correct endfloat.

Below, I'm measuring the endfloat on my 6, with a dti against the front pulley. I believe that it can also be measured with feeler gauges, provided the space between the pulley and the timing cover is clean - mine isn't.

 

Hopefully, new washers will sort your problem, although it's a rotten coincidence that it turns up just after you've done the starter and no doubt want to be out and about. At the risk of stating the bleedin obvious, don't drive the car until it's fixed or terminal damage could be done to the crank/block.

 

As a related thought, unless you know that the big-ends have been replaced in the last 40,000 miles, it wouldn't hurt to change the shells while you're in there. Just a maintenance thing, really.

 

Ivor

 

 

Edited April 23, 2010 by 88V8

[Duncan Elliott]

Thanks for that - I take that the thrust washers can be accessed by just removing the gearbox ?

[graeme]

Duncan,

 

The thrust washers described above are in the engine, either side of the centre main bearing. However, a word of caution, the description you have quoted above sounds more like the six cylinder engine rather than the four. The six is well known for eating thrust washers but the four pot usually doesn't have a problem.

 

I would start by measuring the end float of the crank before you start stripping anything.

 

Cheers

 

Graeme

Edited April 23, 2010 by graeme

[PaulAnderson]

Thanks for the replies.

I have tried the second shim and even a third - Dont get the noise when the motor starts up now but it's still present when the clutch pedal is pressed even slightly. The noise does not go away when the pedal is pushed all the way in either.

It sounds like it is coming from the opposite side of the block from where the starter is too - have uploaded an AVI to YouTube. Any further ideas ??

 

Thanks

 

 

Duncan

I don't know if you've removed a certain part from your car recently but if so, then it might be the cause of your noise. There is a clutch housing cover plate, part number 112445 in my Moss catalogue on the bottom of the bell housing. It has a profile and beveled edges to stiffen up the plate. But, if you put it on the wrong way around, and I can say that it does go on either way quite easily, then it makes exactly the noise you demonstrate on YouTube when you press the clutch. Don't ask me how I know as it's an embarrassing tale of a lot of wasted effort. The solution, turn the plate the other way around and the noise goes away. While doing it you might see the scrapes on the black paintwork on one side from the very light impact of the flywheel. The plate is bolted on with the clutch slave cylinder bolts as well as other bolts to the bell housing.

 

I also changed my engine crank thrust washers as part of the work to reduce end float (a sump off job) but the incorrect cover plate was the cause of my noise problem.

 

Paul

[Duncan Elliott]

Paul,

 

Funny you should mention that - I have had that plate off, I havs a small oil leak that looks like its coming from the crank bearing. So I took the supm off and the clutch plate to see if I could get to it.

 

 

Fingers crossed it's the plate or something that I have introduced.

[Duncan Elliott]

Paul,

 

Beers are on me next time you are in Australia

 

I have just climbed under the car and removed the plate - Noise has now gone.

 

 

 

Thanks

Duncan

[PaulAnderson]

Paul,

 

Beers are on me next time you are in Australia

 

I have just climbed under the car and removed the plate - Noise has now gone.

 

Thanks

Duncan

 

 

I'm very pleased for you - I ended up taking the gearbox and overdrive out again looking for my noise! Last year was not a happy one for my TR experiences with gearbox in and out several times, and I'm still not totally happy with it. I'm off in it tomorrow for its first proper drive of 2010 so I hope the old smile will return. I've not been to Australia but I might have one of your beers (probably brewed in the UK under licence) sometime.

 

Paul

[RogerH]

Paul,

your a genius - a hopeless engineer - but a genius.

 

Roger

[Dazzer]

What a great end to this story, well done Paul.

 

Don't feel so bad about the major work to discover this anomaly in the first place. It happens in the professional environment as well.

 

When I was a BL apprentice, late 70s. I had watched two experienced mechanics and the foreman, over a couple of days, stripping a dolly sprint engine down to try and locate a rattling noise on the engine.

 

I joined them on day three all of them exasperated, looking at the engine, now with head off in pieces but nothing obvious to report.

 

Being the idle youth I slouched on the wing and nonchalantly span the finned pulley on the alternator which was suspended to one side in the engine... it was loose and made that lovely rattling noise they had been looking for for three days!

 

If looks could kill! Shoot the messenger comes to mind.

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[TR 2100]

When I was a BL apprentice, late 70s. I had watched two experienced mechanics

and the foreman, over a couple of days, stripping a dolly sprint engine down

to try and locate a rattling noise on the engine.

 

I joined them on day three all of them exasperated, looking at the engine,

now with head off in pieces but nothing obvious to report.

 

Being the idle youth I slouched on the wing and nonchalantly span the finned

pulley on the alternator which was suspended to one side in the engine...

it was loose and made that lovely rattling noise they had been looking for

for three days!

 

 

Love it. Just love it.

 

AlanR

[JJC]

So just for the record, should the lip on this plate be towards the gearbox or the engine?

[Marty]

Duncan

I don't know if you've removed a certain part from your car recently but if so, then it might be the cause of your noise. There is a clutch housing cover plate, part number 112445 in my Moss catalogue on the bottom of the bell housing. It has a profile and beveled edges to stiffen up the plate. But, if you put it on the wrong way around, and I can say that it does go on either way quite easily, then it makes exactly the noise you demonstrate on YouTube when you press the clutch. Don't ask me how I know as it's an embarrassing tale of a lot of wasted effort. The solution, turn the plate the other way around and the noise goes away. While doing it you might see the scrapes on the black paintwork on one side from the very light impact of the flywheel. The plate is bolted on with the clutch slave cylinder bolts as well as other bolts to the bell housing.

 

I also changed my engine crank thrust washers as part of the work to reduce end float (a sump off job) but the incorrect cover plate was the cause of my noise problem.

 

Paul

 

[Marty]

Duncan

I don't know if you've removed a certain part from your car recently but if so, then it might be the cause of your noise. There is a clutch housing cover plate, part number 112445 in my Moss catalogue on the bottom of the bell housing. It has a profile and beveled edges to stiffen up the plate. But, if you put it on the wrong way around, and I can say that it does go on either way quite easily, then it makes exactly the noise you demonstrate on YouTube when you press the clutch. Don't ask me how I know as it's an embarrassing tale of a lot of wasted effort. The solution, turn the plate the other way around and the noise goes away. While doing it you might see the scrapes on the black paintwork on one side from the very light impact of the flywheel. The plate is bolted on with the clutch slave cylinder bolts as well as other bolts to the bell housing.

 

I also changed my engine crank thrust washers as part of the work to reduce end float (a sump off job) but the incorrect cover plate was the cause of my noise problem.

 

Paul

 

 

Hi,Paul

Does this mean that this plate is fixed with the recesses and the bevelled edge facing out? I also have a slight clicking noise when the clutch is depressed and I am hoping that this is the problem.

Marty

[Duncan Elliott]

For Clarification - the plate has a sharp edge that looks like it shound hook under the bell housing. It has to face the engine.