Disatrous engine problem - help!

[tr6fan]

Went out for a run today, really enjoying the weather. Suddenly lots of smoke out the back and then a smell of oil burning. Metallic clatter as I limped onto the drive. Found the whole underside coated with oil and the cooling fan detached. Having nightmares about wrecked thrust bearings and ruined crankshafts. Any advice very welcome!

Thanks

Phil

[whatmore179]

Has the cooling fan come adrift and somehow hit the oil filter assembly, causing oil loss?

steve

[tr6fan]

Has the cooling fan come adrift and somehow hit the oil filter assembly, causing oil loss?

steve

Steve

No, the oil filter and housing are fine. The fan is completely loose, free of the pulley, seems to have lost its fixing bolts. It's sitting up against the radiator. I think this must have happened before, there is damage to the radiator in line with the fan blades that was there when I bought the car. The oil loss seems to be from the front of the engine, perhaps below the crank pulley.

Phil

[currylager]

Steve

No, the oil filter and housing are fine. The fan is completely loose, free of the pulley, seems to have lost its fixing bolts. It's sitting up against the radiator. I think this must have happened before, there is damage to the radiator in line with the fan blades that was there when I bought the car. The oil loss seems to be from the front of the engine, perhaps below the crank pulley.

Phil

 

Whip the timing chain cover off and check the crank pulley oil seal

[Richard71]

Went out for a run today, really enjoying the weather. Suddenly lots of smoke out the back and then a smell of oil burning. Metallic clatter as I limped onto the drive. Found the whole underside coated with oil and the cooling fan detached. Having nightmares about wrecked thrust bearings and ruined crankshafts. Any advice very welcome!

Thanks

Phil

 

Hi Phil,

Perhaps your damper has collapsed, resulting in excessive vibration through the hub and loosening the fan bolts and all the knock-on problems, overheating, metallic rattle etc.

 

Regards,

Richard.

[Guest ntc]

Hi Phil,

Perhaps your damper has collapsed, resulting in excessive vibration through the hub and loosening the fan bolts and all the knock-on problems, overheating, metallic rattle etc.

 

Regards,

Richard.

 

Sound's about right to me that

 

Regards

Neil

[88V8]

Yes, could be.

Bad luck.

Athough smoke out the back?

 

Carl at TR Trader may have a decent crank pulley/damper. They come in two different diameters, keep whichever you've got.

 

While you're at it junk the fan and fit an electric.

 

Ivor

[shuey]

phill if it is crank pulley i`ve got several here just give me a bell Ican`t ring you lost your number

Edited April 4, 2009 by shuey

[jean]

The clatter probably came from the fan hitting the radiator. The fan is a rather loose fit as it's held in rubber bushes acting as dampers. Many people don't refit the locking tabs and with deteriorating bushes the fan comes loose and is pulled forward into the radiator The pulley itself is very sturdy item what is very difficult to destroy.

[tr6fan]

Thanks for all the advice, chaps. The smoke out the back was because of all the oil burning off the exhaust. There was still oil in the engine when I checked at home - just below minimum, so I hope there is no engine damage. Thanks for the offer of a pulley, Stuart, I'll have a look today and see how things are. Ironically, an electric fan is already fitted as well. Yes, I am sure the clatter was the fan falling onto the radiator - I guess I was lucky thet happened as I pulled onto the drive!

This nmay sound stupid, but is there any chance that just refitting the fan, or just the adaptor that it bolts onto, will cure the oil leak? There is a substantial bolt through the middle into the crank that has undone itself - does it hold the damper etc in place?

Phil

Edited April 5, 2009 by tr6fan

[Guest ntc]

Thanks for all the advice, chaps. The smoke out the back was because of all the oil burning off the exhaust. There was still oil in the engine when I checked at home - just below minimum, so I hope there is no engine damage. Thanks for the offer of a pulley, Stuart, I'll have a look today and see how things are. Ironically, an electric fan is already fitted as well. Yes, I am sure the clatter was the fan falling onto the radiator - I guess I was lucky thet happened as I pulled onto the drive!

This nmay sound stupid, but is there any chance that just refitting the fan, or just the adaptor that it bolts onto, will cure the oil leak? There is a substantial bolt through the middle into the crank that has undone itself - does it hold the damper etc in place?

Phil

 

Phil

If that big bolt is also loose the pully will have slid forword and that is why you lost oil

Regards

Neil

[tr6fan]

Phil

If that big bolt is also loose the pully will have slid forword and that is why you lost oil

Regards

Neil

Is it worth doing it back up, filling with oil, starting up and praying?

[Mike C]

Phil,

 

Trouble with the "start up and hope" approach is there might be damage that could cause further further problems later.Oil seals don't suddenly leak gross amounts of oil unless there are other problems. I'd check the oil slinger in front of the timing chain for damage that may have occurred when the crankshaft pulley bolt was loose.

 

Regards

[Jersey Royal]

Phil,

 

Trouble with the "start up and hope" approach is there might be damage that could cause further further problems later.Oil seals don't suddenly leak gross amounts of oil unless there are other problems. I'd check the oil slinger in front of the timing chain for damage that may have occurred when the crankshaft pulley bolt was loose.

 

Regards

Bad Luck Phil,

 

Check out Rimmers Page which shows the position of oil thrower. Click Internal Engine part 19.

 

 

http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/rimmer/triumph...ternal%20Engine

 

Good Luck

 

Guy

Edited April 5, 2009 by Jersey Royal

[Richard71]

Hi Phil,

 

With the damper/pulley sliding of it's location, you may find the front crankshaft oil seal has been torn to shreds too. If you cross your fingers and put everything back together it may well spew the oil out again.

 

It sounds like this all started with the pulley bolt loosening itself, I would start by paying some serious attention to the bolt, the bolt threads, the damper/pulley, the threads in the crankshaft, and, there's no way of telling how long it has been even slightly loose, so a look at your thrust washers might be a good aproach too.

 

Best of luck,

Richard.

[tr6fan]

Yes, I think the only way forward is to dismantle it properly and check everything. has anyone replaced thrust washers? Is it difficult to do and check the end float with the engine in - or do you have to take the engine out? (gulp!)

Here are some photos of the fan and the previous damage to the radiator - it can't be the first time, wish I'd checked the bolt (Hindsight's a great thing, isn't it?!)

Phil

Edited April 5, 2009 by tr6fan

[Richard71]

Yes, I think the only way forward is to dismantle it properly and check everything. has anyone replaced thrust washers? Is it difficult to do and check the end float with the engine in - or do you have to take the engine out? (gulp!)

Phil

 

 

You can check the end-float with the engine in situ with either a set of feeler guages or dial guage. At the risk of scare-mongering, while you have the sump off check the main bearings too, that's where the damage will be at it's most if the damper hasn't been doing it's job.

 

But inspect the damper first, is it damaged, is the seal in tact? The damper/pulley is essentially two components joined together with a tight rubber seal, if this is damaged then the two parts will move & twist (at least a little) free of each other. I'm suspecting this is what has caused the problem.

 

Richard.

[Jersey Royal]

And heres a thread about Thrust Washers , with a few pictures that may be interesting.

 

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index....9&hl=thrust

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[Mike C]

Phil,

 

The way I'd tackle the problem would be to repair the pulley assembly as required.Then when the pulley assembly is bolted up,but before assembling anything else, check the end play with a dial gauge.Hopefully it's within 6 to 8 thou.If your oil pressure has been previously OK I'd leave it at that and reassemble everything.

 

Regards,

[tr6fan]

And heres a thread about Thrust Washers , with a few pictures that may be interesting.

 

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index....9&hl=thrust

 

Cheers

 

Guy

Great thread there Guy, looks like you did a really good job on yours. My engine has done 9000 miles since it's full rebuild in 1996, according to the past MOT certificates, so if the problem is limited to the oil seal/thrower, I assume I can leave the bearings and thrust washers alone, unless I detect a lot of end float, of course! So in agreement with Mike there!

Thanks chaps!

Phil

Edited April 5, 2009 by tr6fan

[Jersey Royal]

Great thread there Guy, looks like you did a really good job on yours. My engine has done 9000 miles since it's full rebuild in 1996, according to the past MOT certificates, so if the problem is limited to the oil seal/thrower, I assume I can leave the bearings and thrust washers alone, unless I detect a lot of end float, of course! So in agreement with Mike there!

Thanks chaps!

Phil

Phil,

 

I would also agree with Mike.

 

Good Luck

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[Bald Rick]

Phil

 

Looking at your photographs, it appears that the fan and fan extension have come completely adrift and are sitting on the RH side of the radiator. The fan still being bolted to the fan extension.

 

This would indicate that the long bolt that holds the fan extension, damper assembly and oil thrower onto the front of the crankshaft has either come completely undone or has sheared.

 

In either case this would allow the damper assy and the oil seal sleeve behind it to move backwards and forwards which might have caused the oil leak. The damper is unlikey to move very far initially as it would be held in place by the fanbelt which from your photos does not appear to have come off. But it may have moved far enough for the oil thrower to damage the oil seal.

 

Whatever else has happened you will have to replace/tighten the crankshaft end bolt which will necessitate removing the rad.

 

Once you have the rad off you can slacken the fan belt and then carefully pull off the damper assy. This will allow you to check the condition of the oil seal and the state of the crank where the damper assy fits. Do not lose the key which locates the damper and oil seal sleeve radially onto the crank.

 

If you need to replace the oil seal it is a fairly simple job once the rad is off, remove the damper assy, take off the timing chain cover, press out the old seal and press in a new one and re-fit with new gaskets etc.

 

A Moss catalogue (available free) does have excellent exploded diagrams if you do not have a workshop manual.

 

Once you have got the rad off you can check the crank end float more easily. Beg borrow or steal a dial indicator as that is the easiest method. You can push the crank forward by using the clutch and back from the front of the crankshaft.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Good luck.

 

Tony

[Richard71]

Phil,

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned something similar may have happened before, so prior to re-assembly, pay particular attenton the the pulley bolt & threads, look for damage, and check the threads in the crank as best you can, use some loctite.

 

Richard.

[88V8]

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned something similar may have happened before, so prior to re-assembly, pay particular attenton the the pulley bolt & threads, look for damage, and check the threads in the crank as best you can, use some loctite.

In the shop manual I cannot see that there is a lock washer under the head of the bolt, which seems wrong. Certainly there was none in my car. There is now.

Also, with the engine in the car it is difficult to apply the required 90lb torque, even with the car in top gear and the handbrake/wheels chocked.

As you say, Loctite would seem a good idea, assuming one can clean the threads in the crank. I hope I have.

 

Regarding the health of the damper, even when you know it has been slipping, as mine did last year, the two halves are bonded so tight that it's impossible to pull them apart. Here's the pulley sawn in half. The wiggly black line is the rubber.

 

 

The only way to check is to look at the timing marks, if they're obviously 'off' - as mine were by several degrees - then the damper is indeed slipping. This may also manifest in the alternator apparently not charging enough, or the water pump not keeping up at high revs leading to overheating, all of which I suffered. My response to the alternator 'problem' was to hang a bigger alternator on there, which of course made the pulley slip even more.

The health of the pulley can and should be ongoingly monitored by drilling a 1/8" hole into the centre, like this,

 

 

and occasionally putting a drill down it to check that the hole is still inline. I am inclined to think this should be routine on any TR6.

 

I suspect in your case the trouble is likely due to the bolt being undertightened when last it was replaced, and simply working loose again. Even with the bolt pretty loose the fan will still be driven by the two dowels in the front of the crank pulley -see them above - and the fan aerodynamically pulling forward keeps the pulley vertical when running, so nothing shows up until the final parting of the ways.

The dowel holes in the pulley will have suffered and should be examined also those in the fan extension, and the dowels themselves need to be renewed - they are available from Moss.

 

PS: I must admit to being a little confused by the suggestion that the oil seal may have been damaged by the pulley moving forward. Now, I have never stripped the timing case, but unlike for instance the Rover V8, the pulley does not extend back into the timing case, it just sits in the front and the seal seals on the crank nose which is where it is regardless of the pulley being there or not.

If the Rover V8 pulley came loose there would indeed be a problem as the seal runs on the back of the pulley nose, but not with the TR6. So I wonder about the oil loss, I suspect you may have some secondary damage in there. Also give the crank nose a good shake to see if there is any problem with the front main bearing. Even drop the sump and take a look, perhaps the bearing cap is loose, getting into left field I hope here

 

Ivor

Edited April 5, 2009 by 88V8

[tr6fan]

Well, it's in bits now and nothing seems drastically wrong. The chain tensioner is worn so I'll replace it and obviously I'll replace the oil seal, although it doesn't look damaged. I think the fan being loose would have been enough to allow the oil to push past the seal, so hopefully doing everything up properly should cure it.

Thanks very much to Steve Denton, who came over from Northampton to help me and made light work of the dismantling - nice one Steve!

Also thanks for all the advice on the forum - very much appreciated!

Phil