boggie Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Hi All, Well, finally after weeks of very hard work my Dad and I have completed the engine bay. The engine is the original lump but fully rebuilt by a reputable 'old school' engineering company who advertise in the back of TRaction and they have done a grand job. I have either reconditioned or replaced all of the ancillaries and connections etc and whilst the engine bay was clear we have repainted it in two-pack pale yellow. It looks fantastic, even if I do say so myself. So at 6:30 this evening we finally got to the stage where we were ready to try and fire her up. I removed the distributor body and drive, attached a drill to the oil pump drive and carefully spun it anti-clockwise at a modest speed until we had 50Lbs oil pressure registering on the gauge, all oil ways primed. Dissy back on, timed up and connected, I turned on the ignition and with some anticipation pushed the solenoid start button whilst applying some choke / throttle. At first nothing happened (sticky starter) but after a few presses the motor turned a few revolutions and burst into life. However the sound of the engine was accompanied by a nasty metallic clatter which, after a quick investigation, seemed to be coming from the fuel pump area so I switched her off. The pump is a new item from Moss and is fitted direct to the block with the supplied paper gasket. Before we fitted the ancillaries I had truned the engine over slowly by hand through 2 revolutions and there was no resistance (other than normal) or ‘sticky’ points whatsoever. Could it be that the fuel pump or its actuator is the problem? If so, will I have damaged anything by running it for 20 seconds at tickover? Or, does it sound more serious?? Any help or tips would be very gratefully received! Cheers. Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Hi All, Well, finally after weeks of very hard work my Dad and I have completed the engine bay. The engine is the original lump but fully rebuilt by a reputable 'old school' engineering company who advertise in the back of TRaction and they have done a grand job. I have either reconditioned or replaced all of the ancillaries and connections etc and whilst the engine bay was clear we have repainted it in two-pack pale yellow. It looks fantastic, even if I do say so myself. So at 6:30 this evening we finally got to the stage where we were ready to try and fire her up. I removed the distributor body and drive, attached a drill to the oil pump drive and carefully spun it anti-clockwise at a modest speed until we had 50Lbs oil pressure registering on the gauge, all oil ways primed. Dissy back on, timed up and connected, I turned on the ignition and with some anticipation pushed the solenoid start button whilst applying some choke / throttle. At first nothing happened (sticky starter) but after a few presses the motor turned a few revolutions and burst into life. However the sound of the engine was accompanied by a nasty metallic clatter which, after a quick investigation, seemed to be coming from the fuel pump area so I switched her off. The pump is a new item from Moss and is fitted direct to the block with the supplied paper gasket. Before we fitted the ancillaries I had truned the engine over slowly by hand through 2 revolutions and there was no resistance (other than normal) or 'sticky' points whatsoever. Could it be that the fuel pump or its actuator is the problem? If so, will I have damaged anything by running it for 20 seconds at tickover? Or, does it sound more serious?? Any help or tips would be very gratefully received! Cheers. Ian Ian, starting up a new engine is always an anxious time and you are doing the right thing by being cautious. Unfortunately there are a lot of things in an engine that can make metallic clattering noises but the fact that you have oil pressure is a good start. Beginning with the low hanging fruit like the fuel pump makes sense. I wonder if you just crank the engine on the battery (eg disable the coil, pull the plugs) can you reproduce the noise ?. That would allow you to remove the fuel pump and see if the noise goes away. Also check the obvious things like valve clearances, other external rotating parts like dynamo etc. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
67_gt6 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Have you fitted the pump correctly? The lever should sit on the cam, it is possible to fit it incorrectly with the lever under the cam. On the plus side this would tend to only break the pump rather than damage the cam. andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Have you fitted the pump correctly? The lever should sit on the cam, it is possible to fit it incorrectly with the lever under the cam. On the plus side this would tend to only break the pump rather than damage the cam. That occurred to me but if the engine ran for 20 secs or so, I reckoned that would indicate the fuel pump was working properly. On the other hand, if the carb float chanbers were primed using the lever, maybe the engine would run for that long without any more fuel being pumped up, so yes, check out the level on the fuel pump. Not so easy to remove the pump if it's in the car, but a 1/4" drive + extension should do the trick (hint from another thread). Or maybe disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, hold a bottle over the end and turn the engine on the solenoid with the ignition off. See if you get any fuel pumped up. AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 The engine in my 1958 TR3A developed a horrible clatter in 2003. It sounded like 10 teaspoons in a metal cup and someone was swinging the cup back and forth. It took me, and lots of opinions and ideas from about 10 other TR experts to finally find what was doing it. I eventually took out the starter and found that it was caused by the starter. I have the long bullet-nose starter which is correct for an early sidescreen TR and the small drive pinion gear on the end of the starter was not retracting. The teeth on the pinion were being hit by the teeth on the flywheel starter ring. When I took out the starter (easier on a LH drive TR), I found that there was no damage done. I just had to fix the starter and I've had no further clatter since then (28,000 miles). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Lay Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Hi Ian Take the fuel pump out, bet it's one of those with the horrible pressed steel actuators that don't align properly, look for marks on the actuating arm where it is off centre or possibly not even located accurately. Good luck Nigel (with TS952) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boggie Posted March 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Thanks All, very helpful. My money is on the fuel pump. Dad loosened it this evening and, without removing the fuel pipes, pulled it back a little. He found that there was about 1/2 inch lateral play in the actuator arm. I don't remember this being the case when I got it so maybe it was under the cam and received a bit of a bashing from the cam, creating the excessive play. One thing I did notice was that when I hand primed the carbs, prior to starting the engine, it pumped well for a few squeezes (we could also hear the fuel filling the SU float chambers. However, after a few pumps the lever went rather loose, IE when squeezing it up there was little resistance, is this normal? Stan: We are going to try your idea of removing the pump and plugs and crank the engine to see if we get the clatter back.. Andy: How easy is it to get the actuating arm under the cam? We have studs fitted in the block so can only offer the pump up with its flange parallel with the block flange. Could this result in the actuator ending up under the cam? Don: Was it obvious where the clatter was coming from? In our case it was definitely on the opposite side from the starter and towards the back of the engine. Nigel: It is indeed one of the pressed steel modern copies and there is about half an inch lateral play in the actuator, however I don’t remember this being the case when I took it out of the box (although I may be wrong). Will let you know where the marks, if any, are when Dad disconnects the pipe work (don’t forget to plug the supply pipe Dad!) and removes the pump completely. Cheers Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Thanks All, very helpful. My money is on the fuel pump. Dad loosened it this evening and, without removing the fuel pipes, pulled it back a little. He found that there was about 1/2 inch lateral play in the actuator arm. I don't remember this being the case when I got it so maybe it was under the cam and received a bit of a bashing from the cam, creating the excessive play. One thing I did notice was that when I hand primed the carbs, prior to starting the engine, it pumped well for a few squeezes (we could also hear the fuel filling the SU float chambers. However, after a few pumps the lever went rather loose, IE when squeezing it up there was little resistance, is this normal? Stan: We are going to try your idea of removing the pump and plugs and crank the engine to see if we get the clatter back.. Andy: How easy is it to get the actuating arm under the cam? We have studs fitted in the block so can only offer the pump up with its flange parallel with the block flange. Could this result in the actuator ending up under the cam? Don: Was it obvious where the clatter was coming from? In our case it was definitely on the opposite side from the starter and towards the back of the engine. Nigel: It is indeed one of the pressed steel modern copies and there is about half an inch lateral play in the actuator, however I don’t remember this being the case when I took it out of the box (although I may be wrong). Will let you know where the marks, if any, are when Dad disconnects the pipe work (don’t forget to plug the supply pipe Dad!) and removes the pump completely. Cheers Ian When you have filled the float chambers by hand priming then the lever will go slack. Some of the repro pumps are very poorly made and as you have found dont last five minutes. Stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Lay Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Rightly or wrongly I rebuilt the original with the cast actuating lever on the 2 when I looked at the repro one (as Stuart has suggested some are horrible) as it was awful even though it had come from Mr.M. It is the spare wheel well as a spare. Best of luck - Nigel (with TS952) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Harald Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Hi Ian, is it possible that you installed the clutch housing cover with the wrong side to the clutch housing?? I made this mistake and one screw of the flywheel knocked on the cover. Aweful sound and at first i thought it might be the starter but when we turned the engine by hand we found that the metallic sound came from the clutch housing cover. Regards Harald Quote Link to post Share on other sites
67_gt6 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Andy:How easy is it to get the actuating arm under the cam? We have studs fitted in the block so can only offer the pump up with its flange parallel with the block flange. Could this result in the actuator ending up under the cam? Ian, fortunately I haven't had to do this job however I believe that the usual trick is to have a piece of string looped under the arm to hold it up as you offer it up to the block. As to how easy it is to get it wrong, I don't honestly know but I would imagine that it could be made easier/harder dependant on the way the cam is positioned at the time of mounting. andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boggie Posted March 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Thanks Andy, The string trick sounds like a good plan. We will do this when refitting the pump. Harald, Interesting point and something we had not considered. If tinkering with the pump does not fix it then it may be worth a look. Thanks. Nigel, Is it possible to use the internals of the Moss repro, such as diaphragm etc, to rebuild the original or is it a case of sourcing the parts separately? Or is it possible to fit the original actuating parts into the new pump? Cheers, Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dick Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Thanks Andy,The string trick sounds like a good plan. We will do this when refitting the pump. Harald, Interesting point and something we had not considered. If tinkering with the pump does not fix it then it may be worth a look. Thanks. Nigel, Is it possible to use the internals of the Moss repro, such as diaphragm etc, to rebuild the original or is it a case of sourcing the parts separately? Or is it possible to fit the original actuating parts into the new pump? Cheers, Ian Check that the water pump pulley is not loose. Mine was and sounded like a biscuit tin with marbles in it. Dick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boggie Posted March 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Check that the water pump pulley is not loose. Mine was and sounded like a biscuit tin with marbles in it. Dick. Thanks Dick but the sound is definately coming from the rear of the engine on the fuel pump side. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dick Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Thanks Dick but the sound is definately coming from the rear of the engine on the fuel pump side. Does the sound change when you push the clutch pedal down with the engine running.....loose flywheel?? Dick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greasemonkey Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Just a note - never BUT NEVER start up a rebuilt engine and let it tick over - you'll ruin the cam in a very short time. Start her up & go straight to 2500- 3000 rpm for 10 minutes. Completely counter intuitive I know but ask the camshaft people........ !!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boggie Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Just a note - never BUT NEVER start up a rebuilt engine and let it tick over - you'll ruin the cam in a very short time. Start her up & go straight to 2500- 3000 rpm for 10 minutes. Completely counter intuitive I know but ask the camshaft people........ !!!!! Thanks, I am aware of this as I have built race engines in the past but as the cam, bearings and followers have not been changed and I primed the oilways by spinning the oil pump drive using my drill I am sure the cam is not the issue. Also damage to a newly fitted cam and followers if not run-in correctly does not usually show until 1 - 2K miles have been covered. Our clatter was immediate so my money is on the pump, although I could be wrong...... Cheers, Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rudi Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 A few years ago the same occured to me after a gear box rebuild. It appeared to be the flywheel that touched the cover of the clutch housing. In all my motivation to make things right I had flattened that cover plate because it looked to "bulgy" to me. As a result a horable metal noise coming from low/back end of the engine. Nothing dramatic once you have found were the noise comes from. Bulge the cover again, so that the flywheel runs freely. Regards, Rudi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boggie Posted April 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 A few years ago the same occured to me after a gear box rebuild. It appeared to be the flywheel that touched the cover of the clutch housing. In all my motivation to make things right I had flattened that cover plate because it looked to "bulgy" to me. As a result a horable metal noise coming from low/back end of the engine.Nothing dramatic once you have found were the noise comes from. Bulge the cover again, so that the flywheel runs freely. Regards, Rudi THanks Rudi You are the seciond person to mention this. I will investigate when I next visit my Dad's house *the car is there). Cheers, Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greasemonkey Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 Thanks, I am aware of this as I have built race engines in the past but as the cam, bearings and followers have not been changed and I primed the oilways by spinning the oil pump drive using my drill I am sure the cam is not the issue. Also damage to a newly fitted cam and followers if not run-in correctly does not usually show until 1 - 2K miles have been covered. Our clatter was immediate so my money is on the pump, although I could be wrong...... Cheers, Ian Yes, didn't mean to imply it was the cam etc clattering!! Some pumps made in the '90's didn't have the rotor pinned onto the shaft - don't think that would clatter though!!?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boggie Posted April 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 No problem. Annoyingly I will not find out until next weekend when I next visit my Dad. I am beginning to suspect the cover plate more as it would make the sort of sound we experienced. Thanks, Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Yes, didn't mean to imply it was the cam etc clattering!! Some pumps made in the '90's didn't have the rotor pinned onto the shaft - don't think that would clatter though!!?? Nope. The oil pump works great right up to the second that the shaft finally slips enough to disengage from the drive dog and oil pressure drops to zero. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greasemonkey Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 No problem. Annoyingly I will not find out until next weekend when I next visit my Dad. I am beginning to suspect the cover plate more as it would make the sort of sound we experienced. Thanks, Ian I had a timing chain tensioner break once - it has 2 leaves & just one broke - clattering noise - yes - either the chain, or the remains of the tensioner makes a hell of a racket on the cover. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boggie Posted April 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Sorted! It was indeed the bellhousing cover plate. Gentle modification with a hammer and she runs quietly. Many thanks all, much appreciated. Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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