grahama Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 It seems that quality of points is variable. Before taking my car off the road for a while to repair inner wing I took it for a run. Misfire! Points again! So now's the time to get rid of them. It just so happens Rimmer have a sale on with an Optronics Kit, so I thought I might take advantage of that. Inevitably though, there are choices. Rimmer also offer the same kit in "PERFORMANCE" mode (at twice the price of the sale item). Apparently "PERFORMANCE" means "has an uprated power pack ,gives constant maximum spark at the coil through out the whole rev range ,and also has a low resistance coil 37kv output". So, does anyone have experience of both and know whether PERFORMANCE is worth the extra dosh (it's £235 versus £130). Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 This one? At £235... http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProd...amp;SortOrder=1 AFAIK there is only one Lumenition Optronic, you don't have to buy the special coil, just the power module and the fitting kit. The module, and the existing coil removed from its unsuitable location on the engine, can both be accomodated comfortably on the flat bit of the inner wing adjacent to the dizzy. I have the Lumention on my V8 Landy since 10 years, and on my 6 since last summer. Way superior to systems where the electronics are inside the dizzy and exposed to heat and vibration. IMHO Btw, mustn't be used with a ballast coil. Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grahama Posted March 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 This one? At £235...http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProd...amp;SortOrder=1 AFAIK there is only one Lumenition Optronic, you don't have to buy the special coil, just the power module and the fitting kit. The module, and the existing coil removed from its unsuitable location on the engine, can both be accomodated comfortably on the flat bit of the inner wing adjacent to the dizzy. I have the Lumention on my V8 Landy since 10 years, and on my 6 since last summer. Way superior to systems where the electronics are inside the dizzy and exposed to heat and vibration. IMHO Btw, mustn't be used with a ballast coil. Ivor Ivor, no it was Rimmers (but they're identical in price!): http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/cgi-bin/rimmer...1113PERFORMANCE Rimmers do two versions of the Optronics model - a "standard" one and the "performance" one. Standard one is: http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/cgi-bin/rimmer...ph/tr6/elec-ign now priced at £130 (inc VAT) in the sale, so I am windering IF the performance version is worth the extra £100! Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) Ivor, no it was Rimmers (but they're identical in price!):http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/cgi-bin/rimmer...1113PERFORMANCE Rimmers do two versions of the Optronics model - a "standard" one and the "performance" one. Standard one is: http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/cgi-bin/rimmer...ph/tr6/elec-ign now priced at £130 (inc VAT) in the sale, so I am windering IF the performance version is worth the extra £100! Graham HOW MUCH!! ......? For rather less cost than that, you could junk your points, distributor, rotor arm and coil and install a Megajolt system........... john Edited March 18, 2009 by johnny250 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Rimmers do two versions of the Optronics model - a "standard" one and the "performance" one. Standard one is:http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/cgi-bin/rimmer...ph/tr6/elec-ign now priced at £130 (inc VAT) in the sale, so I am windering IF the performance version is worth the extra £100! There is also the Lumenition Magnetronic at £98, but that is another of these jobbies that live inside the dizzy and is therefore a waste of space in my view. To get the Optronic version, with the offboard power module, you don't need to buy the 'Performance' version, all you need is the Optronic power module at £175 and the right fitting kit for your dizzy, at £15. Yes, the optical unit is worth the extra. The quality remains when the price is forgotten. HOW MUCH!! ......? For rather less cost than that, you could junk your points, distributor, rotor arm and coil and install a Megajolt system........... You forgot to mention that you also need a new tacho, and a kinship with Einstein Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 I don't know why electronic ignition systems have so many followers in the TR community. Having been a TR owner for 36 years continuously I had only one fling with these ( Crane/ Allison ) and it performed no better, in fact worse, than the points I have been using for decades: Standard / Blue Streak brand, U.S. made with ventilated stator and felt lubricator. These give a minimum of 5000 miles of maintenance/ trouble-free service, with 10,000 miles not unusual. They never miss a solitary beat through 5500 rpm throughout their service life, which ends with pre-emptory, not cause-related replacement. I realize that modified engines of 200+ BHP may demand more than the early 20th century technology of points offer, and for these engines with " mapped " ignitions systems the electronic route makes sense to me. As I once said to a noted TR specialist who offered me ( for 3000 GBP ) a modern fuel injection system for my '250 " I'm having too much fun with my Webers, and if I wanted all that technology I'd buy a Z3." I can't give up the vintage aspects of my TR with its 1950s era engine, carburetors, points, mechanical fuel pump, etc., etc.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tthomson Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Hi Tom, I don't think it is to do with being a TR. The way I look at this is that the Triumph engineers in the 1950s and 60s didn't have access to these systems, but if the did they would have installed them. They had a track record of innovative design. e.g First with discs on a production car. While living in California, I installed an Allison opto-electronic ignition system on my TR4A. It made a huge difference to performance. I had shipped my TR from the UK and it did not like low octane fuels, but all the pre-ignition problems disappeared with electronic ignition. So I guess what I am saying is that we each have our own opinions on what are best for our cars. I wouldn't want to force anyone else to follow the same options I have taken, but I am happy to say why I have taken them so they can make informed choices. The points system is perfectly adequate for a standard TR and may indeed be "in keeping" with its age, but it doesn't mean it is a better option. In my view electronic ignition is a better option than points so I chose this as my preference. I would have done so for any car that uses a Kettering ignition system (points). I still have the TR. It is currently being refurbished, but I will re-install the Allison ignition system. TT I don't know why electronic ignition systems have so many followers in the TR community. Having been a TR owner for 36 years continuously I had only one fling with these ( Crane/ Allison ) and it performed no better, in fact worse, than the points I have been using for decades: Standard / Blue Streak brand, U.S. made with ventilated stator and felt lubricator. These give a minimum of 5000 miles of maintenance/ trouble-free service, with 10,000 miles not unusual. They never miss a solitary beat through 5500 rpm throughout their service life, which ends with pre-emptory, not cause-related replacement. I realize that modified engines of 200+ BHP may demand more than the early 20th century technology of points offer, and for these engines with " mapped " ignitions systems the electronic route makes sense to me. As I once said to a noted TR specialist who offered me ( for 3000 GBP ) a modern fuel injection system for my '250 " I'm having too much fun with my Webers, and if I wanted all that technology I'd buy a Z3." I can't give up the vintage aspects of my TR with its 1950s era engine, carburetors, points, mechanical fuel pump, etc., etc.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 You forgot to mention that you also need a new tacho, and a kinship with Einstein Ivor You can keep the original tacho Ivor, if you want to hang on to the dizzy to crank it round.....i did....or flog it to a 'diehard' and cover the conversion cost I dont know much about his first fluctuation dissipation theorem....although I believe he did spend some time in Norfolk dodging the Nazis. john Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 It depends on what you consider to be important.I installed a Pertronix because I got tired of cleaning and gapping the points each 1000 miles or so (generally putting it off until poor starting performance forced me to do it).Looking at the engine most people would not notice they are installed.Each to his own. Regards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Warrington Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Just fitted an Optronics system this weekend to mine - the cheaper one without the new coil which I think I got from Rimmers for £113 all in. Took less than 20 minutes to fit and the results are immediately noticable. Previously, the engine would struggle to get over 4000 rpm; now it just runs like a turbine. I hardly needed to adjust the timing, either - it just needed retarding a couple of degrees. I've got a Lucas "Sport" coil, still mounted on the engine. The reason I fitted it was that I was fed up with needing to clean and adjust the points and being let down by duff condensors a couple of times. Earlier, someone said that these can't be fitted to ballasted coils. Can you explain as it looks to me as all the purple wire is doing is grounding the LT side of the coil, so it shouldn't matter whether the voltage on it is 6v or 12v - or am I missing something (again) Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) Earlier, someone said that these can't be fitted to ballasted coils. Can you explain as it looks to me as all the purple wire is doing is grounding the LT side of the coil, so it shouldn't matter whether the voltage on it is 6v or 12v - or am I missing something (again) No, it might be me missing something, in fact it is, ie the instructions for the Optronic, but I'm sure it said that 'something' coils will overload the power module. I filed them in a safe and logical place, I know I did Ivor Edited March 18, 2009 by 88V8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Hi Grahama The difference between the two system's is very little apart from the cost the silver optronic's is totally adequate and far better than points and also if the system fails all you need is a set of points and condenser with a small piece of wire and and your back going in five minutes I have never had one fail yet. You could have issues with the black one if you later fit an electronic tacho as this tries to adjust the dwell angle, the silver one can use a ballasted coil as it only connects to the negative feed. You would be better off with the silver system and send your distributor too Martin i.e. distributor doctor to be calibrated and don't forget the rotor arm. Regards Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Warrington Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 No, it might be me missing something, in fact it is, ie the instructions for the Optronic, but I'm sure it said that 'something' coils will overload the power module. I filed them in a safe and logical place, I know I did Ivor Salvaged my instructions from the filing cabinet (you know the one - it is cylindrical and sits under the desk). The coil it refers to are low resistance "electronic" ones. No idea what these are, maybe something fitted to modern cars? Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 No, it might be me missing something, in fact it is, ie the instructions for the Optronic, but I'm sure it said that 'something' coils will overload the power module. I filed them in a safe and logical place, I know I did OK found the instructions in my Landrover filing, obvious really. It does mention 'ballast' but what it actually says, 'suitable for coil/ballast combinations not less then 3 ohms, but not suitable for low resistance, ie less than 1 ohm, electronic ignition coils'. So if you have a standard coil I guess you're alright. Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grahama Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Lots of feedback - thanks everyone. I did some research at the Lumenition website (incidentally if you go there use www.autocar-electrical.com not the links you get on Google as someones done a dirty about being directed to a different site from the Google search, and the site you're directed to is riddled with viruses - I've told Lumenition and they're trying to get it sorted) and there is a difference between Standard and Performance, and it's to do with more power and upgraded coil. As far as the Standard one is concerned I DO retain the distributor, in fact the optical chopper mechanism swaps in instead of the points and rotor arm. It appears like I'd only really be interested in the performance version if I had a highly upgraded / racing application in mind. So, standard it is for me at £130 inc VAT! Neil - Not reaslly sure why you suggest I need to send distributor off to Martin to get it recalibrated? Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Lots of feedback - thanks everyone. I did some research at the Lumenition website (incidentally if you go there use www.autocar-electrical.com not the links you get on Google as someones done a dirty about being directed to a different site from the Google search, and the site you're directed to is riddled with viruses - I've told Lumenition and they're trying to get it sorted) and there is a difference between Standard and Performance, and it's to do with more power and upgraded coil. As far as the Standard one is concerned I DO retain the distributor, in fact the optical chopper mechanism swaps in instead of the points and rotor arm. It appears like I'd only really be interested in the performance version if I had a highly upgraded / racing application in mind. So, standard it is for me at £130 inc VAT! Neil - Not reaslly sure why you suggest I need to send distributor off to Martin to get it recalibrated? Graham Hi Graham Unless your distributor is in first class condition ( and very few are ) the bob weight's and springs will be worn out and you do not get the correct advance/retard curve. You do not replace the rotor arm with this kit Regards Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Hi Graham, Neil's advice is sound enough - the effective working life of a Lucas distributor is perhaps 50K miles. By then, very small increments of wear on a multiplicity of components aggregates to the advance/retard curve deviating beyond acceptable limits . . . . The benefit of a rebuilt distributor is probably considerably greater than that of an electronic ignition system - which is not a criticism of the latter. Electronic ignition may well offer better reliability and enhanced performance over the traditional points system, but it cannot compensate for excessive wear of the distributor. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 but it cannot compensate for excessive wear of the distributor. Cheers, Alec Which is funny as when these systems first came out that was their selling point Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) Electronic ignition may well offer better reliability and enhanced performance over the traditional points system, but it cannot compensate for excessive wear of the distributor. Cheers, Alec like I keep saying..........unless it's a crank fired one.... why yooo rot rissen? john Edited March 19, 2009 by johnny250 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Hi John, yes, of course you are correct ! I was referring only to the principle of the system under discussion, not to superior crank driven principles . . . . Hi Stuart, indeed so, and they will tend to compensate to at least some extent for a modest wear factor - what they cannot do is to compensate for excessive wear. Although, to be fair, they will probably improve performance to some degree. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grahama Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 I shall bow to those that know! Thanks Neil and Alec. Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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