foster461 Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Last night I installed the spring and shock on the RHS front suspension. All new parts including ball joint and trunnion. When I attached the trunnion to the vertical link is was moving freely but with the spring back on, the vertical link wont rotate. If I take the tension off the spring by putting a jack under the spring pan I can then rotate the vertical link but it is stiff. I will tear it down again today but I'm wondering how stiff should this assembly be when all of the parts are new ?. Before the rebuild the steering wheel could be easily turned from lock to lock with the wheels off the ground. Trunnions were assembled with gear oil, ball joint greased etc. Thoughts ? Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spiro Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Last night I installed the spring and shock on the RHS front suspension. All new parts including ball joint and trunnion.When I attached the trunnion to the vertical link is was moving freely but with the spring back on, the vertical link wont rotate. If I take the tension off the spring by putting a jack under the spring pan I can then rotate the vertical link but it is stiff. I will tear it down again today but I'm wondering how stiff should this assembly be when all of the parts are new ?. Before the rebuild the steering wheel could be easily turned from lock to lock with the wheels off the ground. Trunnions were assembled with gear oil, ball joint greased etc. Thoughts ? Stan Place the jack under the trunion and take the spring pressue at that point and see how it feels. I know you said that you jacked it under the spring but do try this. I've come across this before but once you jack the suspension to near opperating conditon ie as if the car is sat down on its wheels, it is very free and smooth. Hope this helps Spiro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Place the jack under the trunion and take the spring pressue at that point and see how it feels. I know you said that you jacked it under the spring but do try this. I've come across this before but once you jack the suspension to near opperating conditon ie as if the car is sat down on its wheels, it is very free and smooth. Hope this helps Spiro I did support it right under the trunnion and it does allow the vertical link to rotate but it is still quite stiff although it does move. When I assembled the trunnion it was able to move freely but once under tension from the spring the vertical link locks up. I'm going to pull it apart and double check... Thanks, Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Place the jack under the trunion and take the spring pressue at that point and see how it feels. I know you said that you jacked it under the spring but do try this. I've come across this before but once you jack the suspension to near opperating conditon ie as if the car is sat down on its wheels, it is very free and smooth. Hope this helps Spiro Well I pulled it all apart and I can find nothing wrong. Put it back together and with the spring tension relieved the vertical link rotates freely. Remove jack from under the trunnion and it locks up. I even put the old trunnion back on as an experiment and that made no difference. No part of the system (ball joint or trunnion) is siezed but it is as if something is slightly out of alignment and with the spring tension it causes the vertical link to bind on the trunnion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eyetee Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Stan Im assuming the car is complete and the front right suspension is being refreshed, as opposed to assembling the front suspension after a ground up rebuild? If the former then suggest something wrong with new part ie trunniun, if the the latter suggest suspension assembled incorrectly. Seem to recall with my rolling chassis supported of the ground wheels rotate no problem. I have found the most useful book for info is the brown leyland workshop manual, which is what I use, although this doesnt always prevent back peddling. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Stan Im assuming the car is complete and the front right suspension is being refreshed, as opposed to assembling the front suspension after a ground up rebuild? If the former then suggest something wrong with new part ie trunniun, if the the latter suggest suspension assembled incorrectly. Seem to recall with my rolling chassis supported of the ground wheels rotate no problem. I have found the most useful book for info is the brown leyland workshop manual, which is what I use, although this doesnt always prevent back peddling. Yep, this is a just a front end refresh of bushes, bearings, springs, shocks, rotors, hoses etc. The LHS was no problem but the RHS is having this issue. I have a feeling that if I put the wheels on and let it settle, the vertical link will rotate but I'm reluctant to do that without understand why this is happening.. It sure feels like the trunnion and the ball joint are out of alignment and with the assembly under tension from the spring it is causing the vertical link to bind in the trunnion. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John L Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Have you by any chance had the top wishbones off? the front top one should be the one with more offset to cant the vertical link rearwards at the top. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Have you by any chance had the top wishbones off? the front top one should be the one with more offset to cant the vertical link rearwards at the top.John Hi John, yes, *everything* came off including the upper arms and they went back on correctly as far as I know with the most curved arm at the front. Both of my upper front arms were stamped "R" so that was no help but it is pretty obvious how they need to go back on. Current theory is that something went wrong during the tightening sequence so today I'll remove the shock and spring, loosen everything and start over. Its a holiday here in the US today so I have the day free to play with the TR . Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jean Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Yes, as far as I remember the top wishbones are all stamped R and L But due to it's shape of the letter, the L is often hardly visible. Anyhow for correct castor angle the vertical link has to lean backwards and having seen your pictures and the quality of your work Stan, I have no doubt that you fitted them correctly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Stripped it all down again, re-assembled, took special care when tightening the interfaces (Fulcrum pin, ball joint, trunnion, bracket to frame, lower arm pivot bolts in that order) Still exactly the same. Vertical link moves freely (just the ball joint resistance) when the spring tension is relieved, gets very hard to move when under tension. Here's the right hand side that is causing the problem: http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/fos.../FrontRight.jpg At this point I'm inclined to button it up and wait until I see how it is on the road or at least in the driveway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eyetee Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 With the steering rack disconnected is the left side stiff and the right side free or are they balanced the same? Because if they are different then driving the car could hide a problem. By the way 1st class chassis and suspension looks better than new Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 With the steering rack disconnected is the left side stiff and the right side free or are they balanced the same? Because if they are different then driving the car could hide a problem. By the way 1st class chassis and suspension looks better than new I dont recall having this problem on the left side, only here on the right side. I have already swapped out the trunnion and that made no difference. Perhaps I should switch the ball joint just to eliminate that also.. with no load on it the ball joint is stiff but not seized but I can imagine that if it was defective it might fail in this way.. Stay tuned.. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I dont recall having this problem on the left side, only here on the right side. I have already swapped out the trunnion and that made no difference. Perhaps I should switch the ball joint just to eliminate that also.. with no load on it the ball joint is stiff but not seized but I can imagine that if it was defective it might fail in this way.. Stay tuned.. Stan I think I have found the smoking gun.. Swapped out the new RHS ball joint for the old one and the vertical link now swivels freely!. It looks like the new ball joint for that side is defective. It is a tad stiff when off the car but I expected that but it seems when the full tension of the spring is applied it seizes up. I'll call TRF tomorrow and get a replacement. Thanks for not letting me shrug and walk away. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eyetee Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Im just impressed with the standard in the car, are there any more pics Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Im just impressed with the standard in the car, are there any more pics Dont be fooled.. this is the classic example of rolling restoration. Always driven from May to Nov and usually worked on from December through April so each year I tackle something new. Last year (Winter 2008) was the biggie, the engine bay and engine but I have also rebuilt the rear end and this winter the front end. I still have to do the bit in the middle, perhaps next winter when I also take on the rust bubbles in the bottom of the rear valence... Various images posted in various albums on photobucket: http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/foster461/ Still planning on doing some video and perhaps some live streaming. I was tempted to stream my episode with the front suspension this last weekend. Speaking of which, I called TRF this morning and was informed that since it has no bump stops that limit the suspension droop, the TR6 steering is not expected to work when the front end is jacked up and that what I am observing on the RHS is quite normal with no explanation of why the LHS moves freely or why the old ball joints didnt have this side effect. I trust TRF so this all sounds plausible and that wear in the old joints and individual tolerances in the new ones might acount for why only this RHS ball joint stiffens up under load from the spring but I wonder why that didnt come up here ? Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Dont be fooled.. this is the classic example of rolling restoration. Always driven from May to Nov and usually worked on from December through April so each year I tackle something new. Last year (Winter 2008) was the biggie, the engine bay and engine but I have also rebuilt the rear end and this winter the front end. I still have to do the bit in the middle, perhaps next winter when I also take on the rust bubbles in the bottom of the rear valence... Various images posted in various albums on photobucket: http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/foster461/ Still planning on doing some video and perhaps some live streaming. I was tempted to stream my episode with the front suspension this last weekend. Speaking of which, I called TRF this morning and was informed that since it has no bump stops that limit the suspension droop, the TR6 steering is not expected to work when the front end is jacked up and that what I am observing on the RHS is quite normal with no explanation of why the LHS moves freely or why the old ball joints didnt have this side effect. I trust TRF so this all sounds plausible and that wear in the old joints and individual tolerances in the new ones might acount for why only this RHS ball joint stiffens up under load from the spring but I wonder why that didnt come up here ? Stan Stan with the suspension on full drop the top ball joint is at its extreme range of movement and may be the pin is actually touching the housing. May just be whoever makes them now or what other application they have been lifted from. Do you have original type lock stops fitted to both sides? as the usual repros arent actually eccentric and can catch on the spring pan on full drop which will give a false level and so may not allow the top pin to swivel enough to catch on the side the repro is fitted to. Stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Stan with the suspension on full drop the top ball joint is at its extreme range of movement and may be the pin is actually touching the housing. May just be whoever makes them now or what other application they have been lifted from. Do you have original type lock stops fitted to both sides? as the usual repros arent actually eccentric and can catch on the spring pan on full drop which will give a false level and so may not allow the top pin to swivel enough to catch on the side the repro is fitted to.Stuart Lock stops on the trunnions ?. These are installed and as far as I can tell these are original and unlike the owner dont appear to be eccentric. There is no hint of anything getting hung up though. With a jack under the trunnion to take the weight off the ball joint the vertical arm moves freely but as I lower the jack the ball joint gradually stiffens to the point that the vertical arm is immovable. I have ordered a couple of spares from Moss, I'll see if one or the other of those behaves different. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TIMS Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Stan I have a similar (but different) problem with the RHS Track Rod End. As you describe, the arc of movement of the pin in the socket seems to be reduced from the old item and I have needed to jack up under the spring pan to get the track rod end pin into the control arm. Very heavy steering when all allowed to drop and I am hoping that in normal mode the track rod end will function smoothly. We will see when I drop the car off its winter axle stand position. Tolerances not what they were? (from us and the parts?) Regards Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Lock stops on the trunnions ?. These are installed and as far as I can tell these are original and unlike the owner dont appear to be eccentric. There is no hint of anything getting hung up though. With a jack under the trunnion to take the weight off the ball joint the vertical arm moves freely but as I lower the jack the ball joint gradually stiffens to the point that the vertical arm is immovable. I have ordered a couple of spares from Moss, I'll see if one or the other of those behaves different. Stan Stan the lock stops should have the centre bolt hole drilled offset to give lockstop adjustment fore and aft. As I said most of the repros sold now are just centre drilled so dont give any back or front lock adjustment. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Stan the lock stops should have the centre bolt hole drilled offset to give lockstop adjustment fore and aft. As I said most of the repros sold now are just centre drilled so dont give any back or front lock adjustment.Stuart. You know I looked them closely after I media blasted them. I spun them on a new bolt and they seem to have the hole smack in the middle. These have been on the car since at least 1981 when we bought it so I doubt that they are repro's. Any chance that by 1974.5 they changed the approach and fitted non adjustable stops ? Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) You know I looked them closely after I media blasted them. I spun them on a new bolt and they seem to have the hole smack in the middle. These have been on the car since at least 1981 when we bought it so I doubt that they are repro's. Any chance that by 1974.5 they changed the approach and fitted non adjustable stops ? Stan Having just talked at length to Jeff Marks at Moss London I stand corrected. the lock stops were changed at 4a production for non adjustable circular ones as you have (if you dont learn something everyday you havent been paying attention , making the adjustment of inner ball joints on the rack more critical to ensure correct front and back lock. They also know about the change of spec on the top ball joints where on full drop they bind up. Stuart. Edited February 18, 2009 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Having just talked at length to Jeff Marks at Moss London I stand corrected. the lock stops were changed at 4a production for non adjustable circular ones as you have (if you dont learn something everyday you havent been paying attention , making the adjustment of inner ball joints on the rack more critical to ensure correct front and back lock. They also know about the change of spec on the top ball joints where on full drop they bind up.Stuart. Thanks for following up Stuart. I hope that the next person that runs into this problem during a front end rebuild finds this thread before they waste two days repeatedly tearing down and rebuilding the suspension trying to figure out why the vertical link wont rotate !. The good news is I can do this job blindfolded now and would have no fear of replacing the trunnion, outer lower arm bushes, upper ball joint or fulcrum bushes as these can all be replaced without removing the spring and just a jack under the spring pan. I also learned that if the spring pan is not lining up fairly closely with the lower arms as the spring compresses there is a good chance that the spring and/or the upper pad is not seated properly and is causing the spring to tilt so back off the compressor and sort that out rather than trying to force the pan into alignment. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jean Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 For information, on my 1970 TR6 the lockstops on the trunnions are eccentric and they had never been changed Although I drive TR's since 1963 I discover every day things I don't know, fortunately up to now any modification to the original was done by myself, but not always with success Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Hi Stan, My lock stops (1971 TR6), were also 'non adjustable' so I made new ones with the hole drilled off center. They work a treat.. Cheers Tony PS...added a piccie for you. Edited February 19, 2009 by Tonymill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Hi Stan, My lock stops (1971 TR6), were also 'non adjustable' so I made new ones with the hole drilled off center. They work a treat.. Cheers Tony PS...added a piccie for you. Tony, looks like you have braided hose going from the brake pipe to the caliper bracket, what do you have going from there into the caliper ?. Is it the usual curved short pipe or do you have a short braided section there also ? Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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