Steering repairs on TR3 - advice please

[Hicks51]

Now that I've got ROR999 running again with its recon carbs and distributor, I need to address an MoT failure item.

 

The garage said there was some unacceptable play at the ends of the steering centre tie-rod and suggested the silentbloc bush and fulcrum pins, which connect to the drop arm and idler lever, could be worn, although they wouldn't be able to tell for sure what the problem was until the bits were removed. I've bought 2 new bushes from Revington and wanted to know if they would be difficult to replace.

 

Has anyone had experience of doing this job and what's involved please? Are these pressed into place? Do you need a proper workshop with engineering facilities, etc, etc. What do I have to take off the car to get at and remove the centre tie-rod?

 

The spirit is willing but my back is now weak and I can't do the stuff that I used to do. I don't want to start something I can't finish but I don't want to rack up a large bill with the garage if I don't have to.

 

Any advice, as always, gratefully received.

 

Brian.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Hicks51

[marvmul]

I've replace these bushes once some years ago. I don't remember it well but it can be done with everything in place and without special tools.

With the help of a second person the wear at the bushes and joints can surely be assessed by wiggling the wheels and steering wheel.

[Hicks51]

Thanks marvmul - that's encouraging to hear.

 

Regarding the wear, I think the machanic's problem was visually identifying whether the wear was in the bushes or the tapered ends of the tie-rod itself. I optimistically bought the pins on the grounds that they were fairly cheap and the centre tie-rod is unavailable!!

[clive]

My TR2 failed on the same thing a few years ago... solution? Top up the oil! That's all it needed, use the correct thick stuff though!

 

If it is worse than that Revingtons can supply a modivied top for the steering box which means that the worm follower (peg) is spring loaded and therefore takes up the excess wear.

 

I have had this modified item fitted along with a new worm and peg during my re-build. It will hopefully mean that there won't be any more excessive play problems during my lifetime!

 

Also, remember if your MOT tester was born after 1960, he probibly doesn't have a clue about how your steering works, and will say it is worn before trying to see if it just needs oil!

 

When you top up the oil, which should be a thick liquid (Penrite do one to suit), warm it up first to make it thinner, and use the fill hole about half way up the steering column, not the one on the top of the steering box. Keep pouring it in untill you can't pore any more in without it coming out the fill hole.

[TR 2100]

I've replace these bushes once some years ago. I don't remember it well but

it can be done with everything in place and without special tools.

So long since I did this that perhaps I shouldn't be the one to give any advice,

but my recollection is that these bushes are an absoluite b***er to get out, even

OFF the car.

Very happy to be wrong.

Don, fountain of knowledge - where are you?

 

With the help of a second person the wear at the bushes and joints can surely be

assessed by wiggling the wheels and steering wheel.

 

You would think so, and if there's a chance the play can be eliminated without

replacing these silentbloc bushes, it's worth checking out.

 

AlanR

[stuart]

If the Revington replacement centre tie bar bushes that you have bought are the bronze bush type Im not sure but I think they need the ends machining to take them. If they are the rubber original type then the usual way is burn the old bush out and then drive out the remains. I too havent done them for a few years as most of the cars I have done lately have rack conversions but I doubt its an easy job without removing it from the car. I think it can be removed fairly easily once the ends have been split off the steering box and the idler.

Stuart.

[Don Elliott]

I have only ever done this with the front valance off. I've done it twice on my TR3A and once on another TR3A. Alan is 100% right. They are a bu....r to get out, even with the valance off. And I use my big bench vice to press the new ones into the center tie rod.

[Hicks51]

Thanks guys,

 

It seems my fears were probably well-founded. I wanted to avoid taking the front off as that can often spoil the paintwork.

If it's got to come off anyway I might just go for the conversion I've been considering.

 

Does anyone have a view on the Moss conversion kit for a long column car? Is the TR Bitz conversion kit the same one?

 

I'm rapidly running out of summer!!

 

Brian.

[Don Elliott]

I am pleased with the improvement after I installed the new top cover with the spring-loaded peg for my steering box that I bought from Protec in Wallingford in 1992. Back tnen, that was the only place I could buy one. I did the intstallation with the valance off. But for this, it's not essential as you can remove the grille and install it - or re-set the adjustment - after you remove the grille and the air deflector. Since putting it in my 1958 TR3A, I've driven 90,000 miles. But I think I need to adjust it down a bit more, for about the third time since 1992.

 

I would assume that the adjustable spring-loaded peg design from Neil is as good.

[vivdownunder]

Before you spend a bundle on the R & P, why not talk to your nearest TR workshop who could inspect, and give expert advice. It could be fairly minor.

 

They might even have the expertise to effect repairs without taking the apron off, seeing they are likely to have dealt with the same problem many times before.

 

For instance, if it's the silentblocs, they might be able to break the tapers in situ, along with the outer tie rod ends, and slip the centre tie rod out. Then they can be replaced a whole lot easier, as described by Don.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[dykins]

Also, remember if your MOT tester was born after 1960, he probibly doesn't have a clue about how your steering works, and will say it is worn before trying to see if it just needs oil!

 

You might want to consider taking it to another MOT station where the tester may have more empathy with older cars. Your tester seems a bit vague and it may well be worth doing the test again with someone else.

 

After all, you are unlikely to get the work done within the timescale to get a free retest and a new £59 (?) test may be cheaper than the other solutions.

 

Regards

 

Peter

[julian c]

I replaced the bush and pin without taking the front valence off.

The wear would normally be the bush breaking up and not at the tapered pin. If the wear is at the taper, it means the pin must have worked loose, and being hardened would have worn out the drop/idler arm and you will need to replace the pin/bush, and the corresponding arm.

I found it a tiny bit fiddly, but not that hard to do.

While youre there, dont forget to check the idler arm for free play and if ok, give it squirt of grease.

 

 

........and dont forget to use new nylocs or use the old nuts, but with new split pins as not fitting them to castle nuts on the suspension is an MOT failure.

 

Julian

[stuart]

Thanks guys,

 

It seems my fears were probably well-founded. I wanted to avoid taking the front off as that can often spoil the paintwork.

If it's got to come off anyway I might just go for the conversion I've been considering.

 

Does anyone have a view on the Moss conversion kit for a long column car? Is the TR Bitz conversion kit the same one?

 

I'm rapidly running out of summer!!

 

Brian.

From experience I think I prefer the TR Bitz rack conversion. It may need a bit of fettling on the brackets if you are fitting it to a 2 as there are variations on the width at the front of the chassis but later 3 and 3a ones are more consistent. It has a much more substantial feel to it and if you do the change to 3 degree trunnions, associated top arms and steering arms it makes them handle like a dream.

Stuart.

[clive]

Sreriously... check the oil... from the posts above I don't know if you've done this... but without the correct oil in the box and half way up the steering tube you will probibly get excess play anyway!

 

R&P spoils the car if you ask me... especially as you probibly won't be able to keep a working control head!

 

When my car failed it's MOT for this problem it was written that the "offside steering idler" was worn! As the car was RHD it didn't have an offside steering idler! That's how much the numpty new about old cars! Topped it up with oil, took it for a free re-test... said nothing about steering idlers or oil... PASS! The car drove for another 5 years before I took it off the road for a re-build and replaced the steering gear as a matter of course!

[Hicks51]

Thanks again to the host of advisers out there - I'm very impressed with the reach of this Forum and the willingness of people to take time to share their knowledge.

 

I topped up the steering oil when I bought the car a year ago, but only with EP80 or 90. I haven't checked it since, but the MoT guy, Nigel (who is actually sympathetic to the older cars and does regular MoTs on several pre-'70s cars) showed me where the movement was with the car on his ramps.

 

Nigel couldn't finish the MoT because the car failed to run so he couldn't do the brake test. Result was that I was not charged for the MoT test at all. Also, Nigel and his colleague remained behind in the workshop after they had finished their paid work and spent several hours over the next three weeks trying to work out why the engine wouldn't run. The garage owner also offered me the use of his workshop, complete with ramps, etc, on Saturday mornings (free of charge), to try to fix it. After 3 weeks of them pushing it in and out of the workshop so that they could do some paid work, they finally gave up and towed the car back to my house (free of charge). Apart from paying them £100 for 2 hours independent work, so far they have all turned down my offers of cash for their help, insisting that they just want to see the TR running and pass the MoT. I am now an honorary member of their tea club and the old boy who owns the place even used to bring me coffee and sausage rolls when I working there on Saturdays.

 

The garage is a local family-run place and I can safely say they are one in a million. Obviously it's a business but they are not just in it for the money and they have a real interest in older cars. If Nigel fails a car, I believe it's going to be for a good reason, but I will still try to get it reduced to an Advisory!

 

Brian.

[Dick]

Replacing the pins is not a big job.

 

It is best to use a ball joint separater to remove the tapers on the pins and the same on the trackrod ends........

 

I have found that the best way to get the bushes out is to drive the inner tapered part out of the rubber bush with a hammer....applied to the threaded end, the rubber bush can then be drifted out leaving the metal sleeve......which can be a s*d to remove.

 

Two ways.

 

Make a drift on the lathe that is slightly smaller than the bush o/d and drift it out into a socket over a strong vice.

 

Very carefully using a hacksaw nearly cut through the wall of the steel bush in two places diametrically opposed. This will weaken it enough to drift out.

 

I replaced mine a few months ago.....the MOT man the previous year made an advisory comment.

 

There was actually nothing wrong with the old ones. It is surprising how much movement there is even when new......'rubber flexes'.

 

If you have all of the gear ready, replacement should take between one and two hours......including swearing and domestic interuptions.

 

Regards Dick.

[Dave Herrod]

I repaleced mine a couple of years ago, and yes, it did seem to make a difference.

 

The only real problem I recall was separating the tapers from the steering arm and idlers. I think that I endede up using the fork-type splitter and a bigger hammer, but still struggled despite having the car on a lift. Once out, repalecement of the bush was very straight forward; I hack sawed through the wall of the sleeve as described above.

 

There are far worse jobs on a TR

 

Dave

[Hicks51]

Thanks everyone for your tips,

 

I did the job today and my experience sounds the same as Dave Herrod's. I needed two ball-joint separators, the 15/16th inch screw down type for the tie-rod ends and a fork smash-it-with-a-hammer type for the silentbloc bushes themselves (not user-friendly). Hammered out the central metal bolt and burnt out most of the rubber bushes, then pressed the new ones in with a large vice, using a big socket as a spacer over the threaded end.

 

As usual, it took slightly longer to do than to report on it (!!) but it's one less thing on which to fail the MoT.

 

(Dick - plenty of swearing but no domestic interruptions 'cos wife and two daughters were out shopping.)

 

Thanks again,

 

Brian.