Chassis and Engine serial numbers Help

[7mmtancho]

Hi all,

I am going to save 1967 TR4A, hopefully this weekend, the engine has been swapped by a Jap's engine.

According to the owner, the original engine is broken but still being kept in the garage, together with two sets of transmission.

I need your help how to identify the chassis and engine serial numbers, where the locations and how they look.

Especially for the engine serial number, if there is somebody can help with the details such as the font size and scan of the pencil scratched copy, it will be appreciated, so I can easily identify if it is really original or just looks like original.

I just worry that the engine is belong to other different Triumph but engine serial number had been re-done.

Thanks

[Allan Westbury]

Hi,

Your first port of call has to be the TR4/4A registrar Jon Marshall. Jon may well have details of the car you are looking at including its original chassis & engine numbers. If not he can certainly tell you roughly what they should be like.

i am assuming you are in the UK . my 4A was first registered on 8th May '67 & has a factory inspection form dated 6th april '67 ( a bit of white card with a big OK on it). The chassis number is LTG 77149 O & the engine number is LT 77455 E. i guess yours should not be a million miles away.

hope this helps,

cheers,

 

Allan

[Rhodri]

Hi, the chassis does not have a relevant number, but the body should have a commision plate, an aluminium plate with a number from CTC50006 to CTC78687, or thereabouts. A 1967 car would be from CTC75172 to the end of the numbers as that was the last year for the 4A. If it is left hand drive then the number will finish with L, and if it has an overdrive gearbox, it will finish with an O. For example CTC50006 LO is left hand drive with an overdrive. This plate should be rivetted on the panel near the wiper motor. It also has a code for the paint colour and one for the trim colour. The engine number starts with CT and ends with E stamped on the left hand side of the block near the top. This number is not the same as the commision number. When you have the numbers then a British Heritage Certificate will give you more details of the actual car, but costs around £35 or so.

 

A lot of these cars have got the wrong engine fitted from other TR4s or 4As, it depends how original you need the car to be. What country are you in?

[Jersey Royal]

Hi,

Your first port of call has to be the TR4/4A registrar Jon Marshall. Jon may well have details of the car you are looking at including its original chassis & engine numbers. If not he can certainly tell you roughly what they should be like.

i am assuming you are in the UK . my 4A was first registered on 8th May '67 & has a factory inspection form dated 6th april '67 ( a bit of white card with a big OK on it). The chassis number is LTG 77149 O & the engine number is LT 77455 E. i guess yours should not be a million miles away.

hope this helps,

cheers,

 

Allan

 

 

Johns e mail

 

 

mailto:jon.marshall@dsl.pipex.com

 

Cheers

 

Guy

Edited May 28, 2008 by Jersey Royal

[Allan Westbury]

Hi,

Your first port of call has to be the TR4/4A registrar Jon Marshall. Jon may well have details of the car you are looking at including its original chassis & engine numbers. If not he can certainly tell you roughly what they should be like.

i am assuming you are in the UK . my 4A was first registered on 8th May '67 & has a factory inspection form dated 6th april '67 ( a bit of white card with a big OK on it). The chassis number is LTG 77149 O & the engine number is LT 77455 E. i guess yours should not be a million miles away.

hope this helps,

cheers,

 

Allan

 

Sorry,

Having looked at your post again I see you only joined the forum today & have not given a Tr register no. If you are not yet a member then you may not have Jon's contact details which are:

jon.marshall@dsl.pipex.com

 

if you are looking at an export car the numbers could well have different suffix's. Jon will know.

[Allan Westbury]

Hi Rhodri,

Interesting!

rather than go out to the car i fished out the first green registration document for my car which has the LTG & LT numbers I quoted. Any idea where these come from then? The OK inspection card I mentioned has a hand written body number of 77803 on it. Is this really the chassis number & if so what are the numbers on the registration document?

cheers,

Allan

[david ferry]

Allan,

 

You will probably find that the 'L's and 'G' are simply transposed 'C's.

 

The green registration documents were handwritten and I guess someone didn't have clear handwriting or another person didn't read the old documents properly.

 

The 'body number' of 77803 may simply be an 'internal' Triumph factory number used for bodies prior to being added to a chassis and 'adopting' the chassis number. However, i don't know....just a guess!

 

I must also add that nothing changes with the new computerised DVLA.

 

When I moved house recently, it took DVLA about 4 goes to get the documents correct for all 3 of my cars.

 

Regards

 

David

[7mmtancho]

Thanks Rodri and Allan,

 

Now I'm messed up with the two infos...

Which one is correct CTC or LTG?

 

I am in Indonesia, The TR4A I am after is RHD.

Resprayed in White, and has green tinted glasses.

Do not know whether the glasses have been changed, cause I usually see the tR4s from the web, all have clear glasses.

See attach the picture.

You can see that there is another additional gear shift on the steering column, to match the Japanese engine with column shift

I am going to put her back to original as I could (with helps and advices from TR enthusiasts).

Really appreciate for the helps, guys!

 

 

Hi, the chassis does not have a relevant number, but the body should have a commision plate, an aluminium plate with a number from CTC50006 to CTC78687, or thereabouts. A 1967 car would be from CTC75172 to the end of the numbers as that was the last year for the 4A. If it is left hand drive then the number will finish with L, and if it has an overdrive gearbox, it will finish with an O. For example CTC50006 LO is left hand drive with an overdrive. This plate should be rivetted on the panel near the wiper motor. It also has a code for the paint colour and one for the trim colour. The engine number starts with CT and ends with E stamped on the left hand side of the block near the top. This number is not the same as the commision number. When you have the numbers then a British Heritage Certificate will give you more details of the actual car, but costs around £35 or so.

 

A lot of these cars have got the wrong engine fitted from other TR4s or 4As, it depends how original you need the car to be. What country are you in?

[Rhodri]

I am not an expert, this is just information that I have from various sources. I do know that there are a few variations with the prefix and suffix letters, in Belgium and possibly other places, possibly Indonesia. However 99% of the cars will be CTC......

 

Ollie, you could confirm David's suggestion, by looking at your car's commision plate and engine number, and letting us know, do you know where your car was sent to, or is it a UK car? The body number is on a separate small alloy plate, probably your 77803, but is not the comission number which is the important one. There may also be another number on a plate, painted over on the lower part of the right hand rear inner wheelarch, not really relevant. Mine fell off along with the other rusty bits!

Edited May 29, 2008 by Rhodri

[stuart]

Its possible that the Commission number with an L on it may be a CKD car built somewhere else in the world as the Malines (Belgium) built cars had LP as a suffix. Also the old Greater London Council used to issue their own chassis numbers for cars that had been written off and then subsequently rebuilt. (Marko has had one with similar strange comm number).

Stuart.

[Allan Westbury]

Hi 7mmtancho.

 

I have checked both the engine block and my current UK vehicle registration document and they both show CT77455E as the engine number.My car was built in april 1967. If the engine you are being told is the original has a CT number somewhere near this then it should be genuine.

 

How do you know the car is a 1967 TR4A. Have you seen some official documentation & if so what numbers were on this?

 

Please ignore my reference to LTG & LT numbers. Look only for CTC & CT numbers. While my 40 year old hand written documents show them, I also now think this was the result of someone copying them wrong.

 

The best of luck!!! the car in the photo certainly looks like a 4A & I have seen many in much worse condition!

 

One word of advice - if you do decide to buy the car then IMMEDIATELY join the TR register. You will get lots of help, information & stories of people rebuilding cars just like you.

[Allan Westbury]

I am not an expert, this is just information that I have from various sources. I do know that there are a few variations with the prefix and suffix letters, in Belgium and possibly other places, possibly Indonesia. However 99% of the cars will be CTC......

 

Ollie, you could confirm David's suggestion, by looking at your car's commision plate and engine number, and letting us know, do you know where your car was sent to, or is it a UK car? The body number is on a separate small alloy plate, probably your 77803, but is not the comission number which is the important one. There may also be another number on a plate, painted over on the lower part of the right hand rear inner wheelarch, not really relevant. Mine fell off along with the other rusty bits!

 

 

Hi guys,

I have posted a seperate reply to 7mmtancho which I hope clarifies things.

david,

I thing you are right about the transposition, maybe a bored clerk on a friday afternoon?

Rhodri,

Mine is definitely an original UK car first registered to a Mr Leslie Sutton Griffiths, Garston, Watford on the 8th May '67, with the old log book showing various owners until the mid/late 1970's.

I bought OLL410E on the 28th July '79 for £1150 cash. We were a lot more trusting then & I was told & accepted that the car had been off the road for a while as the owner had gone to S.Africa & the car had been de-registered as it was being exported. Apparently the owner then ran out of money & decided to sell the car in the UK. It was re-registered & duly sold to me.

I wake up sweating at nights thinking of all the things that could have wrong & how niaive I was.

Interestingly when I first claimed 25 year exemption it was denied as they said the car was only registered in 1979! When I explained that the car stopped production in '67 & produced the old log book they relented.

Mycurrent V5 shows date of first registration as 1/06/1979. presumably the date of re-registration.

Vin/chassis number is shown as 77803CT god knows where this came from, apart from my old bit of card.

 

I have often thought of trying to sort all this out but didn't know if Jon or a heritage certificate would be the best route. Up to know I have thought probably best to let sleeping dogs lie!

[7mmtancho]

Hi Ollie,

 

Thanks for the info.

I have been told by the owner that his car is limited made, TR4A, but still using old suspension system (Non IRS).

And from the picture, the emblem says so...TR4A, see attach picture.

I have not seen the car, neither the numbers, plan is early morning tomorrow (I am 6 hours ahead of you) I am going to drive (about 5-6 hours drive) to take alook at that dream car. Will let you know once I am fortunate enough to bring her home, and surely I will join the TR Register, as I am sure I will get tons of advise for putting her into the road (in proud) again....

 

 

Hi 7mmtancho.

 

I have checked both the engine block and my current UK vehicle registration document and they both show CT77455E as the engine number.My car was built in april 1967. If the engine you are being told is the original has a CT number somewhere near this then it should be genuine.

 

How do you know the car is a 1967 TR4A. Have you seen some official documentation & if so what numbers were on this?

 

Please ignore my reference to LTG & LT numbers. Look only for CTC & CT numbers. While my 40 year old hand written documents show them, I also now think this was the result of someone copying them wrong.

 

The best of luck!!! the car in the photo certainly looks like a 4A & I have seen many in much worse condition!

 

One word of advice - if you do decide to buy the car then IMMEDIATELY join the TR register. You will get lots of help, information & stories of people rebuilding cars just like you.

[BrianC]

Mycurrent V5 shows date of first registration as 1/06/1979. presumably the date of re-registration.

...

I have often thought of trying to sort all this out but didn't know if Jon or a heritage certificate would be the best route. Up to know I have thought probably best to let sleeping dogs lie!

I think this is standard practice.

 

Lynda's TR4A was built 16/8/65 according to Heritage certificate, but first registered in Jersey, so the V5C shows date of registration as 1/2/68 when it was repatriated. No idea when it was actually first registered as we don't have the original logbook or copies. May try tracing these one day, but I guess we would have to start at the Jersey end (or beginning).

 

Despite attempts to get the registration date changed, I have been told that it is not possible, so even if we had the original logbook it wouldn't help. However, in situations similar to this, a Heritage certificate can be useful, for example in proving that a car was built before the tax exemption cut-off date of 31/12/72.

[vivdownunder]

Hi 7mmtancho,

 

The new information you have posted showing it as being a live axle TR4A changes things somewhat.

 

These cars are indeed very rare, with only a few thousands made, and it is generally thought, but not conclusive, that they were only offered in the USA. Thus this car may have originally been LHD.

 

The commission numbers on the live axle cars had the TR4 "CT" prefix. Thus originally this car would have carried a commission number CT between 50001 (first TR4A) and 78684 (last TR4A).

 

Of course the original TR engine number can only be established by quoting the commission number for a Heritage Certificate, seeing it is now fitted with a Japanese engine. I wouldn't worry too much about this, as the original block is unlikely to turn up, barring a miracle.

 

There's a forum member down in Canberra, Littlejim, who is well advanced with a TR4A rebuild, so his recent experience might be very helpful.

 

Best regards,

 

Viv.

[7mmtancho]

Hi,

 

I just went back home after having long drive visiting the TR4a I am after.

It seems that the owner does not know much about his car.

It is IRS (he had said it was a non IRS), with "56" paint code and "11" code on the same 2nd row, do not know what it means.

 

The car's engine that is kept on the floor looks like Triumph's, but definitely is not belong to the TR4A.

Stamped with TDB5049E ???#$%^&*

 

That's why I have not decided to bring her home....

 

Advise, anybody?

Many thanks.

 

 

Hi 7mmtancho,

 

The new information you have posted showing it as being a live axle TR4A changes things somewhat.

 

These cars are indeed very rare, with only a few thousands made, and it is generally thought, but not conclusive, that they were only offered in the USA. Thus this car may have originally been LHD.

 

The commission numbers on the live axle cars had the TR4 "CT" prefix. Thus originally this car would have carried a commission number CT between 50001 (first TR4A) and 78684 (last TR4A).

 

Of course the original TR engine number can only be established by quoting the commission number for a Heritage Certificate, seeing it is now fitted with a Japanese engine. I wouldn't worry too much about this, as the original block is unlikely to turn up, barring a miracle.

 

There's a forum member down in Canberra, Littlejim, who is well advanced with a TR4A rebuild, so his recent experience might be very helpful.

 

Best regards,

 

Viv.

[BrianC]

Paint code 56 is Royal Blue. Trim code 11 is Black

[david ferry]

That engine is from a Triumph Renown. Capacity as standard was 2,088cc.

 

I am not too sure what the differences are between this and the TR3, 4 and 4a engines.

 

Here in the UK, and probably elsewhere there are many cars that no longer have their original engines.

 

You could obtain a correct TR engine for this car without too much difficulty by having one shipped to Indonesia although cost may be an issue as they are rather heavy!.

 

In many peoples opinion, either an IRS TR4a, or a live axle TR4 is a better bet than a live axle TR4a.

 

It has been said by some that the live axle TR4a combines the worst of both cars. Having never even seen one, I am in no position to comment on this.

 

Apologies if I just upset any owners of rare live axle TR4a cars!

 

If the price is right, and the condition of the car fits with what you want, I wouldn't rule it out, as getting hold of an engine is far from impossible.

 

Good luck

 

David

Edited May 31, 2008 by david ferry

[Allan Westbury]

That engine is from a Triumph Renown. Capacity as standard was 2,088cc.

 

I am not too sure what the differences are between this and the TR3, 4 and 4a engines.

 

Here in the UK, and probably elsewhere there are many cars that no longer have their original engines.

 

You could obtain a correct TR engine for this car without too much difficulty by having one shipped to Indonesia although cost may be an issue as they are rather heavy!.

 

In many peoples opinion, either an IRS TR4a, or a live axle TR4 is a better bet than a live axle TR4a.

 

It has been said by some that the live axle TR4a combines the worst of both cars. Having never even seen one, I am in no position to comment on this.

 

Apologies if I just upset any owners of rare live axle TR4a cars!

 

If the price is right, and the condition of the car fits with what you want, I wouldn't rule it out, as getting hold of an engine is far from impossible.

 

Good luck

 

David

 

 

Hi 77mmtancho,

 

I can guess how you feel & you have done the right thing in walking away today. Any quick decision to buy a car you are not totally happy about has to be correct.

 

Now a few other questions/points:

 

How did you feel about the car? Did you love it but were uncertain because the sensible research you had done had made you unsure, or did it just prove to be a bit of a disappointment?

 

The photo's you posted seem to suggest the bodywork was in quite good condition. Was it?

 

Was the car drivable, & if so did you have a drive?

 

How reasonable was the price?

 

Does the fact that a possible spare engine was not from a TR really make any difference? It was probably not going to be much good after a few years on a garage floor anyway.The Tr4A engine has what is called 'wet liners'. These are bored out to give the desired capacity, in our case 2138cc. I do not know the Triumph Renown engine but it could be it is the same block as a TR with different linings, so could be used a base for a rebuild. I do not know, but I am sure someone does!

Here in the UK the cost of a new/ rebuilt engine is much cheaper than major bodywork repairs. In Indonesia this may be completely different & could change any decision.

 

As David says, the fact that the car is IRS is probably a good thing . Apart from flat out racing where the solid live axle slides around corners better, the IRS axle is generally considered much better & was used almost unchanged in the TR5 & TR6. it also shows that the car is more likely to be genuine, matching the serial no. on the chassis plate as you photographed.

 

Please do not think I am trying to get you to change your decision, I am not. Just ask yourself how you feel. TR's are cars you have to feel for, particularly if that is what you really want. If you feel you have made the right decision, then you have!!!!

 

Well done for unearthing one of our great cars in Indonesia, & good luck in finding a car that feels right to you.

 

cheers,

 

Allan

[7mmtancho]

Hi Ollie,

 

The car was in great condition for the age, except for the stuck swapped engine.

Price was OK, and still achievable.

I could not sleep until now thinking about what I saw yesterday.

 

Problem is that to change the ownership, we have to proof that all the numbers (body and engine) are match to the registration.

I do not know how to say in English, you put the paper sticker on the number, then you scratch it by pencil to get the numbers underneath appear, what do you call this?

Once it does not match to the database at registration office you can not continue the process.

Even you report that the engine was damaged and changed it by the new one, they will ask the import papers including the taxes those have been paid.

While it is not possible to import the new engine.

While using the rebuilt one, it will be not accepted as the source will be suspected from the car thieve. There is no official car junk yard here.

It is so hard to get the dream...

 

Can I get your email for private talks, if you do not mind? Mine is wolf_xto@yahoo.com.

I really hope could bring this car home...

 

ollieTR4A said:

Hi 77mmtancho,

 

I can guess how you feel & you have done the right thing in walking away today. Any quick decision to buy a car you are not totally happy about has to be correct.

 

Now a few other questions/points:

 

How did you feel about the car? Did you love it but were uncertain because the sensible research you had done had made you unsure, or did it just prove to be a bit of a disappointment?

 

The photo's you posted seem to suggest the bodywork was in quite good condition. Was it?

 

Was the car drivable, & if so did you have a drive?

 

How reasonable was the price?

 

Does the fact that a possible spare engine was not from a TR really make any difference? It was probably not going to be much good after a few years on a garage floor anyway.The Tr4A engine has what is called 'wet liners'. These are bored out to give the desired capacity, in our case 2138cc. I do not know the Triumph Renown engine but it could be it is the same block as a TR with different linings, so could be used a base for a rebuild. I do not know, but I am sure someone does!

Here in the UK the cost of a new/ rebuilt engine is much cheaper than major bodywork repairs. In Indonesia this may be completely different & could change any decision.

 

As David says, the fact that the car is IRS is probably a good thing . Apart from flat out racing where the solid live axle slides around corners better, the IRS axle is generally considered much better & was used almost unchanged in the TR5 & TR6. it also shows that the car is more likely to be genuine, matching the serial no. on the chassis plate as you photographed.

 

Please do not think I am trying to get you to change your decision, I am not. Just ask yourself how you feel. TR's are cars you have to feel for, particularly if that is what you really want. If you feel you have made the right decision, then you have!!!!

 

Well done for unearthing one of our great cars in Indonesia, & good luck in finding a car that feels right to you.

 

cheers,

 

Allan

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by 7mmtancho
the picture is not relevant any longer

[7mmtancho]

I am not an expert, this is just information that I have from various sources. I do know that there are a few variations with the prefix and suffix letters, in Belgium and possibly other places, possibly Indonesia. However 99% of the cars will be CTC......

 

Ollie, you could confirm David's suggestion, by looking at your car's commision plate and engine number, and letting us know, do you know where your car was sent to, or is it a UK car? The body number is on a separate small alloy plate, probably your 77803, but is not the comission number which is the important one. There may also be another number on a plate, painted over on the lower part of the right hand rear inner wheelarch, not really relevant. Mine fell off along with the other rusty bits!

Hi Rodri,

Can you send the picture where the number's location you mentioned at RH Rear Inner wheelarch?

Thanks

[BrianC]

How did you feel about the car? Did you love it but were uncertain because the sensible research you had done had made you unsure, or did it just prove to be a bit of a disappointment?

Judging by the smile and title of the 'almosthappyman' photo, I have a distinct feeling that this project will go ahead. Unfortunately, as with many restorations, the paperwork may well prove more difficult than the actual restoration.

[Rhodri]

Hi, I have attached a picture of where the number was. It was on a small strip of steel that I pulled off before I realised what it was. I do not think that this number is recorded anywhere, I think it was only used by the factory making the bodies. The number is certainly not on a Heritage Certificate nor the Registration document. I have also attached images of a Standard Vanguard engine, that came after the Renown, and is similar to the TR4 engine, and even more similar to the early sidescreen TRs as it has a low port head- the ports for the inlet and exhaust are almost in a straight line. The TR4A should have a high port head. This engine would fit into a TR but it is low compression, smaller bearings and head studs etc. The history of this particular engine is that it was an exchange unit from Standard Triumph and was original to a Morgan of early 50,s vintage.

 

In order to send a message to a person, without it appearing on the Forum, click onto the person's name on the left of the posting, and then click on "send a message". Hope this helps.

[vivdownunder]

Hi 7mmtancho,

 

Obviously it is critical to confirm the numbers before purchase, so you can get a proper title to the vehicle.

 

Regarding the spare Renown engine, you can best consider it as a bit of junk.

 

It is of circa 1953 manufacture, and is a low horsepower sedan engine without a cross drilled crankshaft, and with all the other shortcomings described by Rhodri. It would be a waste of time getting it rebuilt for the TR4A, and even then it would not fit in without a new front engine plate, as the TR4A engine mount points are wider than the Renown sedan. You would be very disappointed with the power output of just a bit over half of a proper TR4A engine. It wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding.

 

If your preference is to replace the Japanese engine, then why not go for originality and import a rebuilt correct TR4A engine, gearbox and overdrive. Your best chance of locating a complete drive train would be in the USA or UK, and you would need an engine complete with all accessories and carbies, and if possible, pre run-in on a test bed. Then you just drop it in, hook it up, and away.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[7mmtancho]

Yes, I agree, the spare engine is no use.

 

That's also my thought about importing rebuilt engine, consolidated with other parts to replace the tired ones.

But the problem is that our Government policy does not allow us to import used machine.

 

7mm

 

Hi 7mmtancho,

 

Obviously it is critical to confirm the numbers before purchase, so you can get a proper title to the vehicle.

 

Regarding the spare Renown engine, you can best consider it as a bit of junk.

 

It is of circa 1953 manufacture, and is a low horsepower sedan engine without a cross drilled crankshaft, and with all the other shortcomings described by Rhodri. It would be a waste of time getting it rebuilt for the TR4A, and even then it would not fit in without a new front engine plate, as the TR4A engine mount points are wider than the Renown sedan. You would be very disappointed with the power output of just a bit over half of a proper TR4A engine. It wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding.

 

If your preference is to replace the Japanese engine, then why not go for originality and import a rebuilt correct TR4A engine, gearbox and overdrive. Your best chance of locating a complete drive train would be in the USA or UK, and you would need an engine complete with all accessories and carbies, and if possible, pre run-in on a test bed. Then you just drop it in, hook it up, and away.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.