daveargie Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 Could it ruin the splines in my wire wheel hubs if the high speed balancing is done without the adapters. I'm getting mixed signals and none of the shops that I deal with have the adapters. Also I have two M+S/mud tyres that I was thinking about putting on the rear for a little rallying. Can I mix the muds with the regular radials that I have on the front? Getting mixed signals on this too. Thanks Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Morrison Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hello Dave, loads of stuff on balancing wires on this forum, do a search, or you are welcome to ring me, Cumbria grioup leader, no in the mag. Your M and S tyres will run on the back, no probs, if they are also radials, and at least the the same size as your fronts. john. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daveargie Posted May 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Hello Dave, loads of stuff on balancing wires on this forum, do a search, or you are welcome to ring me, Cumbria grioup leader, no in the mag. Your M and S tyres will run on the back, no probs, if they are also radials, and at least the the same size as your fronts. john. Thanks for the response. The M+S tyres are the right size radials so I'm going to give them a try. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
glasgow4a Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 hi ian here, had problems getting my wires balanced locally,finally found long established local firm who managed it using info in moss catalogue most places do not hold fittings for balancing machine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mfperks Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 If you look at the Moss catalogue, there is a section on balancing wire wheels, note that the first reference point is the inner cone nearest to the hub, the second is the outer cone for the spinner, that's it. Trying to balance with a conventional unit will not work, been there, got the T shirt. Most tyre fitters will tell you it doesn't matter ---- wrong! Oh so very wrong! Good luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 If you look at the Moss catalogue, there is a section on balancing wire wheels, note that the first reference point is the inner cone nearest to the hub, the second is the outer cone for the spinner, that's it. Trying to balance with a conventional unit will not work, been there, got the T shirt. Most tyre fitters will tell you it doesn't matter ---- wrong! Oh so very wrong! Good luck! I've been having the same problem and had discussions with most of the tyre suppliers in the local area. Despite having had copies of most editions of the Moss catalogues, I'd never realised this section was in there. I will photocopy it and pass it on to some of the confused tyre fitters I've encountered recently. Fortunately, I've now located two that seem to have the correct equipment and know what they are doing, but I'll use this to double-check. [P.S. I probably should know, but what's a '63 Rivet'?] Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mfperks Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 [P.S. I probably should know, but what's a '63 Rivet'?] Rivet is rather an odd vehicle, based on a Tr4 chassis and running gear and Stag powered, the car rotted out in the early 70's. The then owner with what can only be described as inspiration from Piccaso in his Cubist period, fashioned a new body which is held together by rather a lot of pop rivets. Tony Beadle when the editor of Triumph World paralleled it with an Avro Shackleton, "10000 rivets flying close formation". There are some pics on our website www.vowhtr.org, Rivet is the green one with side pipes, you can't miss it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Rivet is rather an odd vehicle, based on a Tr4 chassis and running gear and Stag powered No wonder I couldn't find anything with Google - I thought it may have been a motorcycle (e.g. Harley). It's good to see another 'TR Special'. There are probably still quite a few TR 'bitzas' but very little information on them. Perhaps a suitable subject for a book with a difference. It would make a change from all the 'Original...', 'History of...' and 'How to restore...' books which must have reached saturation point by now. [Apologies for the digression to those seeking wisdom on the original topic] Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlejim Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Some time back I thought someone on the forum ventured into the motorbike world and found that some of the motorbike tyre fitters knew how to balance wire wheels. Have no idea what they did for adaptors etc. Haven't investigated it myself yet, in a couple of years I might be at that stage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 I have just read the interesting article by Pete Cox in the Moss catalogue (next to the item on balancing) and was surprised by the revelation (to me) that the wheel flexes by such a huge amount. If it is assumed that both hub & rim of a wire wheel are in good condition, it may be worth having the wheel re-spoked ‘as necessary’ and then trued up by a competent re-builder. The wheel will probably need shot blasting and stove enamelling which will bring the cost to near to (or possibly over) the price of a new wheel. Remember also that you have got a used, worn wheel, not a nice new one. Bear in mind then, that the wheel is capable of being flexed by 4" (i.e., the hub is fixed and the top of the wheel is 4" further out than the bottom), while it is rotating at speed on the road, and it is then supposed to return to the original shape. I've never liked wire wheels (although they do look pretty), but now I'm really scared Incidentally, this is obviously an old article and ends with the comment: We have total confidence in the Dunlop product we sell. Does anyone know whether Dunlop still supply the new wheels now? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mfperks Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Does anyone know whether Dunlop still supply the new wheels now? Mine came from MWS ( http://www.mwsint.com ) I would not worry about the flexing, you'll never notice! By the way, go to the Goodwood Revival and watch wires in action, they reduce unsprung weight so better suspension reaction, Yesterdays alloys really, just a B****r to clean. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 According to the stack of paperwork that came with it, the wires on Lynda's TR4A were reconditioned by MWS, so I was fairly happy that they were as good as new wheels. I'm not sure how worried to be by Pete Cox's comments (although I've great respect for his opinions and integrity), but I guess it shouldn't be too much of a problem as Lynda's TR4A doesn't get driven as hard as my TR3A (not even by me - I just don't trust IRS or wire wheels!). However, wires have been around in competition for a long time, so I guess it's a case of keeping an eye on them and not letting any spokes start to get loose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AGR 441 B Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Could it ruin the splines in my wire wheel hubs if the high speed balancing is done without the adapters. I'm getting mixed signals and none of the shops that I deal with have the adapters. Also I have two M+S/mud tyres that I was thinking about putting on the rear for a little rallying. Can I mix the muds with the regular radials that I have on the front? Getting mixed signals on this too. Thanks Dave Been there got the tee-shirt and found a garage with "On car" wheel balancer. The difference is magic. Its the only way to go. Do'nt worry about splines. Worry about broken spokes! You'll never notice till you look. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mfperks Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Been there got the tee-shirt and found a garage with "On car" wheel balancer. The difference is magic. Its the only way to go. Do'nt worry about splines. Worry about broken spokes! You'll never notice till you look. OK, but what do you do if you have to swap wheels? Puncture etc. Surely better to have the ( switchable ) wheels in balance rather than the whole rotating assembly. Yea, I know that as they wear they change their balance, but? -------- Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Hi Mike, Couldn't agree more. 'On car' wheel balancing isn't an answer, it's a bodge that covers up deficiencies in the hub assembly. Load of old bollocks, in plain Anglo-Saxon. A wheel & tyre assembly should be capable of being independently balanced - if it isn't, then throw the wheel away and replace it. If that doesn't work, replace the tyre and send the tyre manufacturer the bill for the wheel. Been there, done that, won the case. If it's a faulty tyre, then the manufacturer will cough up. The only virtue of 'on car' wheel balancing is to demonstrate that if a properly balanced wheel/tyre assembly doesn't work, then you have a hub assembly problem. Which needs addressing. End of discussion. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
piman Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Hello Alec, I don't agree entirely with your dismissal of on car wheel balancing. Not seen one for a while though, and I'm not aware if they can do a proper dynamic balance, i.e relative to the centre line. In reality the hub assembly is not a real factor in balance as it is much a smaller diameter and pretty regular in shape and density. Certainly an off car balance is better if the workshop has the correct adaptors and the fitter understands how to balance wheels. I always request that weights be put on the outside rim if it is required rather than the modern trend to put them all on the inside of the wheel so as not to spoil the looks!. Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Hi Folks, how about this. There is a lot of talk about balancing wires on the car, off the car, dynamic, static etc. What affect does the fact that the tyres are in fact 'D' shaped when working but are circular whan being balanced. Any out of balance moment is a function of its position on the wheel/tyre radius and the weight at that position. Having balanced it as a circular object, turning it into a 'D' must have an affect. The section of wheel/tyre opposite the 'D's flat must surely be out of balance for a instant of time. Just to complicate matters what happens if any out of balance condition just happens to coincide with any resonance condition in the dampers. I think I'll have a cup of tea now. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AGR 441 B Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Hi, Alec, I understand your sentiment re the optimum route of having a proper balanced wheel/tyre assembly as a separate entity. However in the real world the number of queries on this topic illustrates the difficulty of finding the equipment and the personnel able to provide that service. The correct seating medium for the wire wheel hub on modern machines is the main sticking point. Only specialist classic car establishments are likely to have the equipment. Under these circumstances what is wrong with using the hub of the actual car as a mounting medium to get them balanced, for this is in effect all that on car balancing does. It is probable that an assembly balanced by this method would require very little, if any, weight adjustment if it was then re-checked by a competent establishment off the car. Whilst there is also a shortage of on car balancing machines, they do seem to be more frequent than adaptors to balance wire wheels on modern machines. So far as using the spare when needed is concerned, there is no reason why the spare cannot be balanced for one of the front hubs then taken off and the everyday wheel put back on. Putting an indicator mark on the disc, say red for everyday wheel, white for spare to enable replacement at the correct balance point is easy to achieve. If the wheel is used on the opposite side it is unlikely to be noticeable as noted above,"the car has only been used as a spinning medium in the abscence of an adaptor". The wheel is likely to be very well balanced. Hub effect being at such a small radius, ie. lever arm they are not significant on a well maintained car. Hi Mike, Couldn't agree more. 'On car' wheel balancing isn't an answer, it's a bodge that covers up deficiencies in the hub assembly. Load of old bollocks, in plain Anglo-Saxon. A wheel & tyre assembly should be capable of being independently balanced - if it isn't, then throw the wheel away and replace it. If that doesn't work, replace the tyre and send the tyre manufacturer the bill for the wheel. Been there, done that, won the case. If it's a faulty tyre, then the manufacturer will cough up. The only virtue of 'on car' wheel balancing is to demonstrate that if a properly balanced wheel/tyre assembly doesn't work, then you have a hub assembly problem. Which needs addressing. End of discussion. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Hi AGR, Perfectly reasonable comment. If you can't get access to a competent off-car balancer, then on-car balancing may well have to be the answer . . . However, past experience suggests to me that the influence of worn and ageing hub assemblies can be greater than one might at first think, possibly influenced by disc or drum wear ? One means of improving the situation might be an online database of establishments willing and able to balance wire wheels properly - they do exist, but I'm afraid many of them hide their llights under the proverbial bushel. If we encourage and publcise competent establishments, that may well result in other tyre shops making the effort ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Hi AGR, my solution to balancing wires is to use an old splined adaptor with the centre filled and drilled to the correct diameter with Nylon etc using the balancing machine spigot as your hole diameter. This would then sit concentric on the balancing machine. The spinner would need to have a hole drilled in it to pass over the spigot. The adaptor is assembled into the wheel and tightened with the spinner. This is placed onto the balancer spigot. The adaptor would sit against the balancer back plate and the lock nut would tighten up against the spinner - bobs your uncle. It does work - until the garage changes its balancer for a new machine with a different spigot diameter Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AGR 441 B Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Hi, Roger, I agree completely with your proposal and my local group has discussed many times putting this into action. Problems arise in trying to convince the Tyre Outlets that such a contraption is necessary. Their protection-ist approach to their work as expert fitters who know better than the mere " driver of an old car"; seems difficult to overcome. Secondly, the accuracy of the centre drilling needs considerable attention. If you consider the length of the machine spigot when the assembly is clamped on the machine, any slight deviation on the axis has a much increased effect at the rim of the wheel. Argument about this point can fill a whole evening. My overall approach is this. There are many TR owners out there who's enjoyment of their cars is spoilt on the road by the classic tremour of front wheels at speed. If their cars are well put together the majority can get freedom from the gremlin by getting wire wheels balanced on the car. Why not let them get pleasure from their cars rather than dismiss the solution because of theoretical arguments. Hi AGR, my solution to balancing wires is to use an old splined adaptor with the centre filled and drilled to the correct diameter with Nylon etc using the balancing machine spigot as your hole diameter. This would then sit concentric on the balancing machine. The spinner would need to have a hole drilled in it to pass over the spigot. The adaptor is assembled into the wheel and tightened with the spinner. This is placed onto the balancer spigot. The adaptor would sit against the balancer back plate and the lock nut would tighten up against the spinner - bobs your uncle. It does work - until the garage changes its balancer for a new machine with a different spigot diameter Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
piman Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Hello AGR, to comment on Roger's idea, it is valid but needs the adaptor to be made using a machine tool. So really it is as well just to make up the correct adaptors? I do have my doubts that the average tyre fitter fully understands balancing as opposed to using a balancing machine? Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Hi Alec, the only machining required is 1. the central hole in the nylon for the balancing rig spigot 2. the spinner domed face needs a clearance hole for the spigot and a flat turned on the dome. This is easily done on a small lathe. However, as you state it does need to fit the rig with little/no play. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
piman Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Hello Roger, a lathe would be fine but if you have use of a lathe, why not turn the adaptors, saves finding a wheel hub? Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Hi Alec, why do things the easy way when with a lot of effort things can be really complicated. If I did things the easy way I would have time on my hands to do DIY and shopping etc. As well as that I didn't think of doing it the easy way - you've not been talking to my wife have you. Rgds Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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