paddyboxall Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 I am having problems trying to check the level of the gear box oil - having an issue with the over drive. I don't have the benefit of a ramp only a couple of stands. Is it better to check this by taking off the tunnel inside the car and if so does this mean taking out the seats? Could someone confirm where I should locate this on the gearbox. This may seem obvious but I am new to this part of the car!! Thanks in advance. Paddy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ron Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Hi Paddy You would be better buying a pair of ramps and a pair of axle stands, taking the gearbox cover off to check the oil level is a long tedious job which requires the seats and the radio frame to be removed, it's a lot of hassle. The level/filler plug is high up on the passenger side but reasonably easily accessable when the car is up in the air. Ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Wyn Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 It would be far less hassle to ask a garage if you can put it on a four poster for 5 minutes. If you have contacts there would be no problem, if not, then a drink may be in order, problem with trying to get under the car as it is now is that things are not level. Wyn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
67_gt6 Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 There is a construction site near my office and I noticed today there are several small breeze blocks lying around that might be suitable for "borrowing". I plan to borrow 4 and put one under each wheel. With the addition of some jack stands under the chassis as a failsafe I reckon this will be a perfect way to keep the car level and create enough room to get under it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobIsaacson Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Hi Paddy I agree with Ron, get 2 ramps for the rear wheels and then lift the front onto stands. It's not tricky but far easier than removing the interior. Trust me, i just replaced the clutch and the interior is out at the moment. Regards Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 The easiest way I've found is to take it to an oil change place and let them remove the plug from underneath. If you intend to use an oil not usually stocked at their facility you'll need to bring your own, and a means to transfer it from your container into the gearbox - it will have to go uphill. I've used a quart container ( SAE 30 non-detergent motor oil, in my case ) with a hole in the lid, through which a flexible tube is tightly inserted right to the bottom. Squeezing the bottle causes the oil to flow up the tube. It's a good idea to warm the oil beforehand... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 I wouldn't get too hung up over the car not being level when you top up the oil - it's not that critical after all. The filler is a square section plug partly obscured by a horizontal rib cast into the gearbox so you may feel it easier than seeing it. You know those catering size ketchup bottles with a hand pump on top that you find at burger vans? The pump makes an ideal gearbox oil refiller if you attach a length of hose to the outlet. Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
millsie Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Hi Paddy, I've cut an access hole and fitted a cover plate in my gearbox tunnel so I can top up the gearbox from inside the car, the way I've fitted the carpet lets me do this with the H frame in place so is relatively quick and easy. May be something to consider next time you have the interior out. Cheers, Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paddyboxall Posted February 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Thanks everyone, really appreciate the advice. There is a land rover centre near me with a ramp etc so I may see if I can persuade them to put the car on it. The ideas for getting the oil in are better than mine. Thanks again. Paddy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnC Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 FWIW, I use Millsie's trick of an access hole in the gearbox tunnel, plus I use a 'killaspray' type pressurised bottle to deliver the oil. Takes a while to force its way throughthe little nozzle, but very easy. Cheers, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John L Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 What's the current equivelent now for EP90 in the gearbox and overdrive, is there now something better? What do you guys fill it with? Regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianhoward Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 John I have been informed that good old 20-50 engine oil is good for an overdrive gearbox - I am sure there will be people that will scoff at that! I have this in my '5' and it performs very well with the O/D engaging/disengaging virtually instantly... I am sure that there are a number threads on the subject that a search will bring up - but no definitive answer! As for filling, I use an old gear oil 'squeezy bottle' until the overflow occurs - a bit on the awkward side but it does work - so long as you can get the filler plug off in the first place! Rgds Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Wyn Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 I was about to ask the same question John, and I agree with Ian, there are plenty of previous threads which left me even more confused due to the conflicting answers. I believe that in agreement with Ian, many suggest engine oil and one TR recognised supplier suggested this to me recently. I use Penrite Gearbox Oil 40 but towards the end of the year (before the car went into hibernation) I was having difficulty engaging second for the first few miles of travelling (bordering on the impossible at times) until the car warmed up. I was wondering if a thinner oil would be better. Before going to LeMans last year, I drained my gearbox oil, and cleaned the filter, and refilled with Penrite 40, but when I returned from France, there was a large patch of oil under the car the next day, it appears that I had not tightened the brass drain plug tight enough. When I refilled it was obvious to me that there was little oil left. One consolation is that there was obviously some oil left to deposit on my drive or I would have been in deep trouble. I was wondering if running low on oil could be the reason for this selection problem. Any advice would be appreciated Wyn p.s. once the car was warmed up, everything is as normal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BryanD Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 There are lots of opinions on this, but I suspect the most commonly held view is that a GL4 standard EP80-90. is nearest to the original spec. EP = extreme pressure and is designed for use in gearboxes. GL4 because it (so rumour has it) does not contain an ingredient which causes the yellow metal components to erode. 'Comma' make this and its available from most of the smaller motor accessory shops in the UK - although I did have to buy 5L last time. IMHO it is best to get the car as level as possible. You can do this with ramps and axle stands, but is a bit of a pain. I use a Draper oil suction gun to squirt it in with. If you have o/d remember to clean the big brass filter while you have it drained. Maybe this year I will ask my local small garage to do it while they have the car on their lift for the MOT... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ron Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Hi All I would be wary of using engine oil in the gearbox unless the car is used very lightly, I would suggest the weight of the oil recommended might be due to the engine torque, an example, for a standard 1800 MGB, 20/50 engine oil is recommended for it's gearbox but when virtually the same gearbox is used in the V8 GT gear oil is recommended. At present I'm using straight Castrol EP80 in the TR6 gearbox [mainly because my local Tesco was selling it off at 50p a bottle a few years back], I think if the makers recommend using gear oil it would be wise to accept their recommendations. Ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 (edited) I would be wary of using engine oil in the gearbox unless the car is used very lightly. I think if the makers recommend using gear oil it would be wise to accept their recommendations. Sage advice, but... I haven't heard of anyone recommending gear oil for O/D gearboxes in decades. As for light use, note that Racetorations advise using motor oil in their gearboxes ( up to 230 BHP so it's good enough for me ), and QUANTUM MECHANICS in Connecticut, USA go one step further advising non-detergent SAE 30W, claiming that regular motor oils will froth under heavy use. Not wishing to sound like a broken record, I nonetheless repeat that GL and SAE oil designations are not equivalent; i.e. the viscosity of SAE 50 is on par with GL 90. So SAE 30W is not as much less viscous than GL90 as the digits would imply. Edited February 14, 2007 by Tom Fremont Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Hi Ian, Wyn and Co, as somebody previously stated there are a number of threads on this one. But try and get your heads around this version. The TR4 and TR4A workshop and owners manuals give the same info for G/B's and Diffs. - EP90 in each. If the TR5 & 6 also have EP90 in the diff then EP90 could go in the Gearbox. The reason being that the Diff leads the most arduous life when it comes to its lubricant therefore the gearbox should be well within 'limits'. However if you consider what goes on in the diff you will see why EP oils are recommended. Unlike a simple 'straight' cut gear tooth the diff has a rather complex bevel gear (I think thats where the name Hypoid comes from, the gear tooth shape - could be wrong on that one). Anyway back to the plot. As the pinion rotates, its teeth which are engaged with the corwn wheel teeth, do not exert all the pressure forces compressively or perpendicular from tooth to tooth, there is an element of shear force. The oil is there to stop the teeth from rubbing themselve away. If you used a light non EP G/B oil then the shear forces passing through the oil would rip the oil apart - it's long chain polymers would become short chain sludge and no longer provide lubrication. However the EP grade allows for this shear force. Thus the mechanical set up (Hypoid) is satisfied by the EP oil. The application (Diff) is satisfied by the oil weight - because of the 90 degree power change (backwards to sideways) a great deal of heat is generated in the diff & the heavier weight handles this better. So for th diff we have EP90 (or there abouts). There are thicker EP oils, EP140 etc but these contain horrid things. Not only do you not put them near yellow fittings you also should not touch them. Back to the plot, again, the gears in the gearbox are not cut the same as the diff. These are sort of straight cut gears. However there is a problem using straight cut gears they are B****y noisy - boo. Some bright spark decided to introduce a bit of twist into them and made the helical (straight cut) gear, these are not noisy - hurray. However (how many time have I typed however!!!) the tooth shape is similar to the straight cut gear and totaly different from the Diff pinion/Crown. If you imagine the simple gear tooth as a triangle and now make two sides slightly convex you end up with a rather sweet cuddly triangle. If you make your gear in this fashions what will happen when two gears are engaged is that instead of imparting shear forces in the oil you impart only compression forces through the oil - How can this be I here you say!!! Because of the convex curved side faces of the tooth the engagement means that the teeth 'roll' over each other - there should be no sliding (shearing). This rolling ensures a compressive force Therefore as there is no shear (only compresion) you don't need EP grade. Again because the forces are much easier to contain in compression the long chain polymers do not break down so easy thus meaning you can get away with a light grade SAE 40, 50 etc. If you are using an O/D there is a more interesting reason not to use EP oils. The clutch in the O/D can run quite hot - I don't mean hot as in a recently run gearbox casing hot but very very hot. However (oops) this heat is working in a very small micro environment and if the EP oil was also in that environment the sulphurs and other glorious bits would roast up a treat and produce - crud. This is a technical term that one uses when the correct word is not forthcoming. You do not want crud in the O/D as it will eventually block up your ports and stop the pump and things working. So there we have it - don't use EP oils they will bung things up, Lighter weight gearbox oils work fine due to the different loading on the oil. Thin oils may leak more so stick to SAE40 or 50. Castrol XXL works particularly well as does Penrite. The above is general info but should hold good for any of the normal TR's. If you go doing silly things then have a think about it. Best of luck Roger I'm sure somebody will spot any errors but the principle is good and it will get people talking. I've got Castrol XXL in my TR4A G/B, O/D and it's still going after 65,000 miles in 8 years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ron Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) I might be missing the point [i'm good at that ] in all these discussions over the years about what oil to use in the gearbox but it states quite clearly in the handbook for my TR6; above 0deg C use SAE 90 hypoid oil in the gearbox, surely if the manufacturers thought engine oil would do in the gearbox they would have said so, after all it would have been cheaper for them originally to use engine oil if they could have got away with it. The other problem I have is this statement that certain modern gear oils can attack yellow metal, has anyone ever seen any scientific proof of this or is it just another urban legend? and which particular yellow metals does it attack? Any 'yellow metals' I've come across in gearboxes are bronze, not brass and the term yellow metal generally means brass alloys rather than bronze alloys. There are a HUGE range of bronzes [as there are brass alloys] with very differing chemical and mechanical properties so it seems unlikely to me that an oil additive would attack all the different variations of it? Just a thought. Ron Edited February 15, 2007 by ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianhoward Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 RogerH Many thanks for your comprehensive explanation! Certainly sounds reasonable enough to me! As I said in an earlier post, I have heard arguments from both sides of the fence - probably about 50-50 (that's not a grade of G/B and O/D oil is it??? ) I am sure it will not the last we shall read on this either. Cheers! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Hi Ron - good reply, we are all dabbling a bit as the OEM is gone. you are perfectly right in being sceptical about my long winded diatribe. What I was trying to do was put some substance to a few urban 'myths' As you say Triumph recommended EP90 for all the range and thats what I said. I added the stuff about the imfamous 'yellow' metal query as some of the more powerful and nasty EP oils (as I said EP140 & upwards) have some strong oxidising compounds in their make up. Some of the stuff from the 1950's - 1970's were quite nasty - not sure about modern mixes. I'm probably on your side on this one. I'm also a cynic and believe Triumph noticed thicker oil didn't leak as much as SAE40. However I was trying to explain the gear design differences between the gear box and diff, that may dictate what type of oils to use so that others may have an entertaining evening thinking about it. There is a factual basis for the O/D clutch to affect the EP oil ingredients whether this is a practical concern is debateable but worth mentioning for the fuller picture. The camp is split on thick or thin oils, will it damage will it not!!! It's still all urban myth as the OEM is now dead and buried and unless somebody does some research you do what keeps you happy. However it doesn't detract from engineering facts. Nice 'talking' to you Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ron Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) Hi Roger I wasn't particularly being sceptical about your diatribe, it was very interesting, it was more just a general observation, however I would disagree with your theory that there is no shear involved with the gearbox gears, by their nature any helical cut gear produces some degree of shear, the only gear that doesn't is a straight cut one. Geartooth cross section does not vary greatly from straight cut to helical to hypoid, the same involute gear cutter will cut a straight or helical gear in a milling machine if the number of teeth are the same, what does change is the angle of shear when the gears mesh and any gear that meshes with a shear effect in my opinion would be better with gearbox oil rather than engine oil. The saving grace is probably the fact that most of these cars are only lightly used nowadays and were probably well over engineered in the first place. Further to my previous comments about 'yellow metal' although bushes and thrusts are usually bronze, if the main ball races are original there is a likelyhood that the cages are brass although they are less likely to be in modern replacements. There does seem to be a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest that brass is damaged by EP oils but I haven't come across anything yet that suggests bronzes are. Ron Edited February 15, 2007 by ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 A couple more facts to consider: - Automatic transmission fluid is pretty thin stuff, but works with helical gears too. - HP losses will be higher in a 'box with higher viscosity oil ( others can quantify this ) I for one don't think using gear oil in the gearbox will cause any catastrophe. One can expect stiffer shifting until warm, no doubt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnC Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 According to Penrite's very helpful technical department (I called to ask), the yellow metal issue is not an urban legend, it used to be true, in that a decade or two ago this was a problem. BUT they assure me that their current EP oils do not attack any kind of yellow (or white) metal, and they believe the same to be true of all major brands. Perhaps somebody else might like to get an opinion from another oil company? Cheers, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Hi John, that was a smart move, getting the info from the horses mouth (wish I had done that). It is still rather confussing though, in that the TR4/4A workshop manuals it clearly states that EP90 gear oil is used but the gearbox does not use hypoid gears. Then add to that within the Standard Motor Company service instruction manual for the Laycock-De-Normanville O/D unit (Pub #502274) on page 5 it states "the oil in the overdrive is common to the gearbox. The oil to use is ordinary mineral oil in the following grade - SAE30. Under no circumstances should extreme pressure gear oil be used, because the centrifugal effect of the planet gears may seperate some of the aditives from the oil and cause sludging" This is quite an old manual but covers the introduction of the TR2. So one minute we have Standard Triumph quoting SAE30 then the next EP90 for the same/similar unit. You pays your money and takes your choice - whatever keeps you smiling. Best of luck Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Then add to that within the Standard Motor Company service instruction manual for theLaycock-De-Normanville O/D unit (Pub #502274) on page 5 it states "the oil in the overdrive is common to the gearbox. The oil to use is ordinary mineral oil in the following grade - SAE30. Under no circumstances should extreme pressure gear oil be used, because the centrifugal effect of the planet gears may separate some of the aditives from the oil and cause sludging" This is quite an old manual but covers the introduction of the TR2. I'd say that pretty well "grandfathers" it. Here in the 'states this advice has found a sizeable following. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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