Z320 Posted June 23, 2018 Report Share Posted June 23, 2018 Hi, to dismantle the water pump in pieces I have to press beatings and shaft "out", shaft through the impeller? Bearings and shaft move, but the shaft does not move any millimeter through the impeller, perhaps my press is too week? Should I use heat on the impeller, or is there another trick? Ciao Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted June 23, 2018 Report Share Posted June 23, 2018 Is the Brass impeller cross pinned to lock it to the shaft or soldered to the shaft? A bit of heat will expand the brass and the shaft with bearings should the push through. The seal will be destroyed by the heat probably. When re building get the impeller depth set correctly for the housing I use a shim between pimp body and impeller face and ush up to it. This is all detailed in the factory workshop manual. If you break the brass impeller I think I have a spare. Cheers Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted June 23, 2018 Report Share Posted June 23, 2018 I struggled for many years with water pumps and finally had my own original rebuilt by a forum user in the Netherlands. He fits a stainless shaft and new seal that works. It is very important to have the correct clearance for the impeller and some seals have a very short life. Use our man and the problems are over. I will try and find his details and post them for you. Good luck Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rcreweread Posted June 23, 2018 Report Share Posted June 23, 2018 There is an alternative UK rebuilder - EP Services in the Midlands - full details under the "Oily Smuts" post in the TR4/4a forum Cheers Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted June 23, 2018 Report Share Posted June 23, 2018 My spare is from EP and they have a good reputation. My stainless shaft expert is K.N.Smyth-Hamers. Vonkotraat 21,6436 BK Amstenrade (L) NL Good luck Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted June 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2018 Hi, thank you all for your aswers. To look at the workshpo manual is a good idea, I've "seen" the illustration of the pump repair many times but did not realise what the story is about this monstrous Churchill tool. My first consern is not to repair the pump but to open it and understand how the sealing works. It was always this way with me, first dismantle, look inside, understand - or not, but it together again. As I was a little boy the last part did not always work.....sad stories happend to my toys. Ciao Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted November 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 Any interest about how to do that? Now I know (but not where to get new seals). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted November 19, 2018 Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Z320 said: Any interest about how to do that? Now I know (but not where to get new seals). 88G446 is the part number Moss sell the seal under. A product I listed in TR2-4A and TR5-250-6 catalogues. Same seal fits both water pump applications, although the early car seal has a big rubber seal around the spring part. There is a replacement ceramic seal the MGC/Squealey racers use but that needs the impellor and housing machining to get it to fit and work. https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?search_group=&q=88G446 Cheers Peter W Item 47 here on TR5-6 https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr5-6/cooling-system/water-pumps-fittings/cooling-system-tr5-6.html Edited November 19, 2018 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted November 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 Great Peter! with a new seal it makes sence to show, I order. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted November 19, 2018 Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 (edited) I guess you have worked out how the seal ‘works’. The rubber bit pushes in the back of the impeller. The spring loaded carbon seal runs against the rear of the castvhousing. This area must be machined smooth for the carbon seal to seal on. The ceramic seal needs to be sealed into the housing, onto the shaft and into the impeller rear face. The sealing are of the rotating parts being inside the seal assembly. The standard seal sealing being between the rotating carbon ring and the static pump housing. I have never completed the installation of a ceramic seal in a TR pump. Cheers Peter W Edited November 19, 2018 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted November 19, 2018 Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 Send it to the Netherlands. I collected pumps and seals and parts for years before sending it away and getting a new pump which is a major improvement on the original. good luck Richard & B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted November 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 (edited) Yeah I realized that, Peter, also that you know how very well how to dismantle the pump... Hi Richard, to understand and DIY is part of my hobby. . Edited November 19, 2018 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted November 19, 2018 Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Z320 said: Yeah I realized that, Peter, also that you know how very well how to dismantle the pump... Hi Richard, to understand and DIY is part of my hobby. . Did you get a bronze impellor for a 4 cyl TR Pump? I may have a spare in the box of pump repairs. PM if interested, I will then go looking. Cheers Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted November 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 At the TR2-3 and TR4-4A manual there is shown how to press the shaft through the impeller and bearing out with a Churchill tool. That did not work how strong I ever pressed on my leaver press. Reason is the impeller is pressed waterproof on the shaft, perhaps also soldered. Later you will see it makes no sence to remove the impeller from thre shaft. To press the shaft the other way out did also not work, yesterday I realised it is because item 18, a spring lock washer. You find it when you clean out the grease from the gap of the housing, push it with two screw drivers down, turn the shaft 180° and get it out with a bended wire. See the gap where it retains on the shaft. Now it is easy to press the spindle out, there it is. Here you see the inner seal, that is the water seal, it fitts like a cork or plug in the impeller. The surface pointed out with the red arrow is the seal surface running on the housing, not on the shaft!! Inside there is a spring. On this surface on the housing the seal is running, I have to prepare it, it is not smooth enough, as Peter points out. Used the wire again to pull out the outer seal through the gap, you see it damaged because I tryed to press the shaft out not realising the spring lock washer. To me this seal makes no sence. Also there is a washer / distancer made of bronze, also pull it out (not on this photo). Tome to press out the bearings and distancer, inside diameter 16 mm, drill in the housing ist about 17 mm, so I made this tool. Do not forget to remove the outer spinkg lock washer, press out the bearings and distancer. There the pieces are, ready to clean. Nice and easy job when you DO NOT TRUST THE MANUAL. No need the care the sediment on the shaft, the seal does not run on this, I do nothing with it. Perhaps I could use the inner seal again, it still holds the impeller 3 mm on distance, 2.159 mm is recommended. That's it for the moment, bearings are fine, waiting for the new inner seal. Ciao Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR NIALL Posted November 19, 2018 Report Share Posted November 19, 2018 Well Done Marco all very informative. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted November 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2018 At this forum there is no TR-iki to collect such informations.....? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted November 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) Cleaned the bearings, wanted to get the old grease out, after that one of them blocked.... Closer look and I found them stamped "Hoffmann / England V3179"; that's 16 x 40 mm, 14.2 mm wide, no longer available for affordable money. 16 mm shaft is no more standard, perhaps it never was standard, "similar" is bearing type 6203, 17 x 40 mm, 12 mm wide, as a "special" 6203-16 for nice price A 4.4 mm longer spacer is needed therefore, mine is lovely stamped "CVP", so I opened the Hoffmann bearings dust washers, broke out the paper washer, cleaned them and made new dust washers out of POM. The "reconditioned" bearings run wonderful. Prepared the housings surface on the late, new seal arrived yesterday, it is like e long very elastic tube, in the impeller like a plug, pressed wide by a strong spring inside Ciao Marco Edited November 23, 2018 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted November 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) Last steps, cleaned the housing and the grease drills, set the 1st bearing in, the spacer, grease, the 2nd bearing, circlip. Sorry, no photo. Only for my interest I checked how deep the impeller can go in the water pump housing: with 1 mm card board seal about 4 mm. The recommended gap between impeller and pump housing is 2.159 mm - so the impeller is nearly exact in the middle between both housings. I know there are some folks out there who want the gap between impeller and water pump housing smaller, 1.0 - 1.5 mm less could work. But with this the pulley also moves out, because it is tightened on this small offset of the shaft, not on the inner bearing bush. (Edit Jan. 2020: this might be wrong, I've been told the pulley is bolted agains the inner bearing bush and the circlip limits the movement out of the shaft) I keep it as it was and work due to the workshop manual as I can see no need to improve the water pump. This is the seal in the shaft, not pressed in the impeller jet, looks high? I hope(d) not too high. Fitted the seal #8 and spacer #9, pressed all together - with the result the shaft was not possible to turn with affordable torque! In pieces again and found the seal too high: 17 mm, compressible to 13 mm, while the housing down to the prepared surface is only about 8 mm deep. No to see, the inner plastic ring in the seal was already broken, after pulling it out in pieces the remaining seal is 13 mm high, compressible to 8 mm. Little difficult to adjust the gap to about 2.20 mm, some up and down - but finally I got it. Pump turns lovely - but will it be sealed? I could use the old seal, I will keep it in my workshop! By the way: the outer seal, spacer and clip to me make no sense. Ciao Marco Edited January 23, 2020 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quicksilver Posted November 25, 2018 Report Share Posted November 25, 2018 Hi Marco Thanks for sharing your projects, the information and the How To rebuilt. Yes a "Tr iki" look a like Tips and Tricks is handy. Marcel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted November 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2018 Hi Marcel, you and me, we are alone with this idea At eBay I found a pump repair set with impeller, bearings, shaft, seals, spacer - in pieces, and asked myself how to find the correct adjustment / position of the shaft when the impeller is not or no more on the shaft? A look through the "grease gap" gave me this answer: You see the spacer glued with grease on the second / inner bearing, exactly below is the gap in the shaft for the circlip. That limits the way the shaft can be pressed out, this is the correct position of the shaft in the bearings and the position of the pulley to the belt! The impeller is to be fixed on the shaft with 2.159 mm gap to the pump housing - ready. You also see the outer seal, which only gets water when the inner seal is worn - it cannot hold the water back, it seems to me more a "water defector" to keep the water away from the bearings - it there is not grease over all. Does this make sense? Worn inner sealing, water comes out the gap and you drive on lucky because the bearing is protected...if it is. Any other idea about this seal? Ciao Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted December 1, 2018 Report Share Posted December 1, 2018 When I rebuilt my water pump I got a friend with lathe to run me up a new shaft in stainless steel based on a sketch provided by the late Don Elliott. He increased the main shaft diameter to 17mm (I think) to fit modern available bearings. The spacers also need to be opened out. I bought a new seal from a tractor spares company and refaced the front sealing face of the pump body by using my bench drill as a vertical mill. I used an old valve with stick on (self adhesive) carborundum discs. It seems to have worked for the last 3 or 4 years, (fingers crossed) and because it’s the old pump body it still has the grease nipple Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted December 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2018 (edited) Hi Ian, all roads lead to Rome - so many different roads also do I fitted the reconditioned one (used the old paper seals, old hoses, wire clamps), run the engine in the garage until it was hot, works well, no loss of coolant at all. With a closer look on my old replica Bastuck pump (8 years old, still fine condition) I see they uses 6203 ZZ bearing (guess ZZ and not 2RS to let the grease easy out), made the shaft 15.9 mm in diamter for the pulley, 17 mm for the bearings and probably 16 mm for the impeller. I store it as my 2nd spare part water pump and do not dismantle it. A unsealed one would be nice to destroy. Ciao Marco (BTW, I have no deal with Bastuck) Edited December 3, 2018 by Z320 2RS, not RS2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted December 3, 2018 Report Share Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) Very impressive work by a very neat home mechanic. I do not think that many of us would be able to do this overhaul with such precise care and attention to fine detail. What does 2.159mm equal in old money Well done and start on the SU carbs soon so we can start tuning for the Drive It Day. Richard and B Edited December 3, 2018 by Richardtr3a incorrect spelling Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 Thanks Richard, my idea is to repair first before buy new, DIY to understand and to help others with this information to get help one day (hopefully). Ciao Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted December 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2018 Was out for a 20 miles drive yesterday, pump is sealed but noisy. Before I greased the bearings I run them with 8 bar compressed air - and the inner one had a slightly rattering noise. Ordered a set of 6203-16 today, but it's also an interesting experience to hear a not 100% proper water pump bearing running. TR3 water pump housing with 100% bypass worked very well, what else at 5°C outside temperature. Ciao Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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