F1loco Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 So I got a guy coming to install the new tires on the new Panasports on Friday. Decided to remove the wheels and this is what I found. The back of the wheel is the best one with "identification" with "INAS" 15x6 and maybe 1x2? Still curious if anyone can ID them any better based on the same and if they are worth anything at this point in the second market. More discerning are the gouges you can see by the lug holes from the apparently horrid welding job - and yes - those all appear to "bolts" welded in place and/or JBWelded in place as best I can tell from the pics. Do I need to buy new hubs at this point all the way around with pressed in lugs? Best I can tell that's about $1,000 proposition plus my hard earned labor. BTW, does anyone know "how long" the studs should be? I found probably 1/4 spacers on the rear and don't know if it was for offset purposes or lug length purposes. Seems it never ends. Many thanks, Don. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveN Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Personally I would just give the wheels a little local blending around those ‘divots’. Use a fine ‘rat tail’ file and polish them to a nice smoothe radius and then reprotect with a bit of etch primer and some wheel silver. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Not stressed about the wheels as I have a new set of Panasports going on - will obviously have to some grinding on the terrible weld - just didn't want any other issues given the method of lugs (bolts) inserted and fixed with weld/JBWeld. This isn't Cuba already - there is a proper way to rig things .. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveN Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 I guess those pins were designed to dig into the wheel when the lug nuts were tightened to stop the bolt from turning? So I would pull the hubs grind off the pins and knock the bolts out and see what’s going on with the ‘splined’ holes. Guessing here but I wonder if the studs were too short for the alloys, there may be nothing wrong with the hubs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 The hubs may be able to be cleaned up, I don't mind the JB Weld or whatever glues been used but desperately unhappy about a bolt that supposed to hold a wheel on being welded ! even if only spot. No telling what's been done to the composition of the bolt material with very high temperature causing localised crystallisation and... snap ! Also the thread profile on one of them looks like it's goosed ! with the threads nearest the hub looking flat topped where the wheels fretted on them, new bolts definitely a safer call. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 The hubs may be able to be cleaned up, I don't mind the JB Weld or whatever glues been used but desperately unhappy about a bolt that supposed to hold a wheel on being welded ! even if only spot. No telling what's been done to the composition of the bolt material with very high temperature causing localised crystallisation and... snap ! Also the thread profile on one of them looks like it's goosed ! with the threads nearest the hub looking flat topped where the wheels fretted on them, new bolts definitely a safer call. Mick Richards Tell me about it. Of course if they "rigged" it this bad, wonder if there are even any splines anyway? I certainly don't want the new Panasports gouged from the weld on the front hub. Guess it's the lesser of the evils to grind and hammer out the bolts and I can reassess after that. This car is going to be concourse before it's over with ... glad they continue to rise in value. Cheers, Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveN Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Aha my bad I thought they were pins through the bolts. (That’s want comes of using a phone screen!) I can see the welds now using the desktop monitor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Hi Don, the bolts that have been welded are the wrong type This Moss pic doesn't show it very well but shouldn't they be screw in studs and welded at the back? https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/axles-differentials/girling-rear-axle-tr3-from-c-ts13046-tr3a-tr4-tr4a-usa.html Have a look at Item 105 - the correct stud. Remove one of the bolts and see if the correct stud can be fitted - you may be lucky. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Items 105 (for steel wheels) and 108 (wirte wheels) perform the same function. They should be screwed in from the front and peened over at the back. I would have thought welding may suffice, but the heat from welding may well affect the strength of the bolt. The other bolts with the lock tabs - looks like the tabs have not been flattened, so they will be replacement bolts. Correct grade? The 1/4" spacers are often used when fitting wire wheels as the standard wheel studs are about 1/4" longer and will foul the wire wheel unless they are either shortened or a 1/4" spacer fitted. AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Will get the grinder out tomorrow and see if I can remove a front bolt and see what I'm dealing with - but in light of the mess - I may just opt to remove and refit alloy ones. The rear bolts clearly have 4 marks at 2,4,8 and 10 o'clock but I couldn't find any identification of them on the web. Until the new wheels get fitted, not even sure if they are the correct size and length as well. The front hub should be straight forward? Remove bearing from front, unbolt and should slide off, correct? What about the rears? Is there a way to swap just the hubs w/o having to pull the 1/2 shafts and worry about seals, etc. (other than the one between the hub and bearing housing? Being this old, I worry about getting it sealed up tight again without a speedi sleeve or the like going on. At least I'll know the thing that attaches the wheels to the car will be proper at that stage - albeit $1,000 light in the pocket. Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Just looked at the rears and seems the previous owner never bent over the locking tabs - so if they are the incorrect length, seems I may be able to just back the bolts out? Assuming they simply screw in from the back then the locking tabs are peened over to lock them in place. If so, that would be a time saver if the bolts are incorrect length and pitch. The fronts - well - I'll have to stay tuned on. Would the welding done also potentially affect the strength of the hub where the studs were originally screwed in from the front, just as in the bolts? Maybe I can get away with just replacing the front hubs with fresh bolts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Just got a better photo of the front bolts - definitely Grade8 - so with the time under the welder, I will have to pull all of these at a minimum. Sent some emails on the rears to a few bolt supplies here in the states - maybe they can also shed some light on the rears, provided they were installed correctly and of correct size and strength. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 TBH I would remove all of the bolts and replace with proper studs. These are the ones I use for Alloys as they are longer to accomodate the thicker flanges and the tube nuts. You may need to trim them down by 1/2" depending on the thickness of the wheel flange but they are much better quality steel than you will find from the usual suspects. For the rears you do have to (if they havent already) drill the flange out to suit slightly as they are thicker in the shank end, fronts are a direct replacement. These are fit and forget.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-TR3-TR4-TR5-TR6-1-Longer-Wheel-Studs-Pack-of-8/182579219779?epid=1723010959&hash=item2a8291cd43:m:mkkZonnAja5NsfH5q7LdxzA Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 1. It appears the rears are simple grade 2 bolts that thread through from the back - so hoping to just be able to reverse them out - will the knurled bolts you recommended simply pull in and set w/o the hub having the splines? 2. As the front hubs may have been compromised with the welding, and the holes are certainly messed up, I may be going the route of upgrading to alloy hubs with pressed in bolts and bigger bearings and newer seals. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 1. It appears the rears are simple grade 2 bolts that thread through from the back - so hoping to just be able to reverse them out - will the knurled bolts you recommended simply pull in and set w/o the hub having the splines? 2. As the front hubs may have been compromised with the welding, and the holes are certainly messed up, I may be going the route of upgrading to alloy hubs with pressed in bolts and bigger bearings and newer seals. The ones featured do pull in but as stated you may need to depending on what has already been done, drill the holes out very slightly then they are a tight interference fit and will cut their own splines as they pull in. I doubt the front hubs have been compromised by welding as they are a good size lump. Its the currently fitted bolts that will have been compromised Stuart. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Well I pulled the drums of the rears to see what they did back there - the good news is grade 8 bolts no weld - just some JB Weld on the back side. Appears they ground down the outside edges of the bolt head as to miss the springs on the pads as the hub turns. Wondering if this is if it's not broke don't fix it kind of fix? I have about 1 3/8" of lug from the outside of the hub out. Just have to find out if it's enough to bite the Panasports, or too much of a bite. Hopefully it's "not enough" and extraction will be my only choice. I'll have to see about the fronts tomorrow when I got time to bring the grinder out. Appears they only put the weld on the passenger side, the driver side is grade 8 weld free with JBWeld on the back. Of course, when I am stuck with flat on the side of the road and go to undo the lug nut and the bolt free spins, it will otherwise be a swearing fest if I don't take care of these issues now. Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 . Of course, when I am stuck with flat on the side of the road and go to undo the lug nut and the bolt free spins, it will otherwise be a swearing fest if I don't take care of these issues now. Don Thats precisely why I would replace them now rather than get caught out. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 . I guess I can take the brake shoes off to have enough room to hopefully back them out. I think the rears are threaded in from the back. The fronts I managed to bang lose with a ball pin, but they are too long to extract w/o hub removal, unless I cut with the grinder to shorten, but then I worry I'll have to remove the hub in any event to insert the new ones. Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 . I guess I can take the brake shoes off to have enough room to hopefully back them out. I think the rears are threaded in from the back. The fronts I managed to bang lose with a ball pin, but they are too long to extract w/o hub removal, unless I cut with the grinder to shorten, but then I worry I'll have to remove the hub in any event to insert the new ones. Don To change the fronts you do need to strip the hub off, the rears have a thread originally in the hub but judging by the bodge already done Im not sure there is now, thats something you will only find out when you get the old ones out. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 The report - After some grinding and hammering I managed to get the studs out of the welded hub out - the bad, appears to be helicoils in the holes. Removed them to find a pretty knurled up mess. Not sure of new studs would "press" in. Waiting on a call back from vender regarding OD of the knurl. May have to bite the bullet and get this kit which would pretty take care of the front side of things: https://www.bpnorthwest.com/alloy-hub-heavy-duty-stub-axle-and-heavy-duty-bearing-set-tr3-to-tr6.html Onto the rears, passenger side looked pretty good after removing the drum and shoes, but driver side discovery - oil/grease. Trying to figure out if 1) Differential fluid - but not "strong smelling" like I am used to smelling when it comes to gear box lube; 2) Brake fluid - does have a bit of Carmel color on the inside of the drum; but 3) Smells more like plain old grease? Maybe they were too "excited" and too much was packed in, heated up and now the mess I have. Or maybe a combo of 2 or all the above?? Shoes are pretty slick and saturated, so new brakes shoes will be order - when will it end? At least I know why I had to push to get it to stop. Headed to store to buy 7/16 20 nuts and hopefully use the impact gun to back them out of the rear hubs ... Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 Possibly over enthusiastic greasing of rear hubs as they only need a couple of strokes a year. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F1loco Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 So the good news, the rears were just screwed through the hubs - the bad - I had to cut them in 1/2 to get them out as they were too long and backed into the brake frame/pan. Which brings up a question - As I am probably not going to go with the OE peen studs as I don't want to pull the hubs/axle to peen them in, which means I have to go the knurled type stud, what size do I get? I am not sure 1" will be long enough, but worried 1.25 - 1.50 (previous bolt lengths rear/front), will be TOO LONG to insert through the back? I dry mounted the new wheels and got about 10 turns before snug at those length, and add the fronts where 1/4" longer?? I assume if I take the bolts off from behind the brake frame/pan, I open Pandora's box - or can I just push it back a little w/o issue on the seal/bearing hub and free up 1/2-1" more room? Lastly on the fronts, I noticed this - seems the rubber boot and upper a-arm bushings are a bit aged - but notice the "grind" by the top of the ball joint to the front - on both sides? I couldn't find anything in schematics to tell me what the previous owner actually ground off - assuming he must have had set off issues with the wheels. Any cause for concern? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graeme Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) Lastly on the fronts, I noticed this - seems the rubber boot and upper a-arm bushings are a bit aged - but notice the "grind" by the top of the ball joint to the front - on both sides? I couldn't find anything in schematics to tell me what the previous owner actually ground off - assuming he must have had set off issues with the wheels. Any cause for concern? IMG_4541.jpg Hi Don, The grind is fairly typical to give clearance for poor fitting alloy wheels although yours looks a little excessive. I have a concern about the flexible brake line, it shouldn't be at that angle, it doesn't look right if the brake calipers are standard. Cheers Graeme Edited January 12, 2018 by graeme Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 As Graeme says the grind is fairly standard for wheels with the wrong offset. To replace the rear studs the easiest way is the pull the half shafts complete from the axle tube. Flatten the tabs on the 6 bolts at the rear and undo the bolts. Draw the shafts leaving the backplates in place and then when fitting the studs grind a small flat off the head flange of the stud and they will go in relatively easy. If required the seals on the end of the axle tubes can be easily replaced. The only difficult one is the grease seal in the centre of the hub which requires the hub removing from the shaft which requires the correct puller. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 I have a concern about the flexible brake line, it shouldn't be at that angle, it doesn't look right if the brake calipers are standard. +1 Definitely. This needs to be located well away from moving parts, with the assistance of twisting and the lock nut on the other end. Just don't ask me how I know. AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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