astontr6 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 It does not look very safe at the Mercedes, the connection between the pumps, already working under 3 bars, looks a little bit small but anyway, its Mercedes and it works for 25 years! What I would do is to buy original BOSCH pumps and not the cheap Charlys to be on the safe side. The original Bosch pump recommended by Bosch UK engineering dept. 40 years ago was their part number 0-580-254-952. This pump is still made but on 15 weeks delivery as per 3 weeks ago, another member has one on order! But it needs a 10m/m minimum bore fuel supply from tank to pump and must be sited below the fuel tank. I use a Mahle in line filter KL158 before the pump using a coil clamp to mount it to the body work. All my fittings are screw except the spigot for the feed into the pump from the filter. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Hi Bruce, you may get them from SANDTLER, German motorsport supplier. He offers a list to transfer the hundreds of Bosch numbers to about 10 pumps. They have most of them on stock. Maybe the above is one of them Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Yes, more manufacturers than you might expect used the Lucas Pi system. This thread on Sideways talks of Jaguar (D- and E-types), McLaren (M7A, possibly others), Ford and Cosworth using both the pump and the metering unit, but as said above, electric versions of the pump for starting, mechanical for running. http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/6876-lucas-pi-on-new-jagaur-e-types/ John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 I think I'm right in saying that in the racing application the MU didn't rely on manifold vacuum but it had a mechanical connection to the throttle slides. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Hi Bruce, you may get them from SANDTLER, German motorsport supplier. He offers a list to transfer the hundreds of Bosch numbers to about 10 pumps. They have most of them on stock. Maybe the above is one of them Thanks, I will look! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Do nt know a out others, but Kastner had a mechanical mod that translated throttle position into M/u action. He had a box of cams that would 'tune' the M/u for any conditions. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Yes, you have to find someone who can weld motor cycle fuel tanks which I did. They have the know how in my experience to do this type of work. My original BL welded fitting was cut out after purging my fuel tank with an inert gas. Sometimes it is done using Argon or Co2 then a new larger turned up female boss brazed in, some people will use a type of silver solder. Female/male bosses are available from some hose fitting suppliers usually with a AN thread.. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Rhis is my 1st "quote reply", see above:) Hi Bruce, Thanks for your reply about increasing the pump suction line ID. I gave it some additional thought, would it be possible to use the larger drain connection on the RHS of the tank, this would avoid brazing-in a larger nozzle. It would also allow a straight run from tank-outlet to pump. Pump and PRV would remain on their current location on the LHS of the tank. Thanks, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Do nt know a out others, but Kastner had a mechanical mod that translated throttle position into M/u action. He had a box of cams that would 'tune' the M/u for any conditions. John Normally the metering is done what we call "speed density" That is according to air pressure and air temp and manifold pressure metering the proper amount of fuel. As we know PI does not have air pressure and air temp. They assume it is always the same. For high altitude a second box was added to take that lower air pressure into calculation because larger differences can not be tolerated. What Kas did is called "alpha-n" where the throttle position and rpm is taken to meter the fuel that is needed. Unfortunately the rpm is not measured with this solution. The estimation is that fuel amount does not change over rpm. I wrote a comparison between this modification and how this is done with EFI on the Kas pages. What was the reason to do so? For hotter cams there will be problems with manifold pressure and pulsation. That makes it difficult to get things perfect from 290 degree cam on. Alpha-n does not need that "dirty" manifold-pressure-signal. Modern EFIs can use both systems as required and some also offer a hybrid. It starts with speed-density and with opening throttle is swapped to alpha-n to take the best of both ways to meter the fuel amount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Rhis is my 1st "quote reply", see above:) Hi Bruce, Thanks for your reply about increasing the pump suction line ID. I gave it some additional thought, would it be possible to use the larger drain connection on the RHS of the tank, this would avoid brazing-in a larger nozzle. It would also allow a straight run from tank-outlet to pump. Pump and PRV would remain on their current location on the LHS of the tank. Thanks, Waldi I have to say that my tank which is original does not have a separate drain off, very useful! Yes I do nor see why not, I assume that it has a larger thread size than the fuel hose supply one? Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 I have to say that my tank which is original does not have a separate drain off, very useful! Yes I do nor see why not, I assume that it has a larger thread size than the fuel hose supply one? Bruce. One of my TRs uses that plug. Thread is very similar to M16x1,5. I cutted that thread and used all that stuff from oil cooler. Unfortunately a normal banjo does not fit because the tank is a little bit to high above the rear hole. But there is a so called double banjo availiable that I could use, making a cylinder as a spacer instead of the upper banjo. So I ended under the rear trunk with a 1/2" banjo where a 12mm fuel hose fits. This is much bigger (more than double) compared to the original 8mm hose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 Thanks Bruce and Andreas, I will (TRy) to fit the suction line from the large drain to the filter and next to the pump. I note the Mahle KL158 has M16x1,5 mm thread, to that should all fit nicely. Regards, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kwackersaki Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 Bosch any day. A Bosch equivalent can even be viewed as a service item and changed at the time of the fuel filter. The pumps supplied for TRs are not bespoke items so buy from a motor factor. (rather than an overpriced Bosch from a TR dealer) Hi, have you a part number or recommended supplier? I've just been out and mines started making an awful noise. . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 Bosch any day. A Bosch equivalent can even be viewed as a service item and changed at the time of the fuel filter. The pumps supplied for TRs are not bespoke items so buy from a motor factor. (rather than an overpriced Bosch from a TR dealer) Hi, have you a part number or recommended supplier? I've just been out and mines started making an awful noise. . Look at my response #27 part number given by me! Bosch pumps making a nose is often due to fuel starvation on low fuel in tank and poor sighting of pump? Or bore size of fuel pipe too small? Or a combination. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kwackersaki Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Look at my response #27 part number given by me! Bosch pumps making a nose is often due to fuel starvation on low fuel in tank and poor sighting of pump? Or bore size of fuel pipe too small? Or a combination. Bruce. Thank you. It's been ok up until today. Tank was low, less than 1/4 full and very hot weather. The pump is under the rear wheel arch and was very warm to touch so could be that but fancy getting a spare just in case. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 How far away is it from the exhaust pipes / silencer box and is that a stainless steel type? If too close this could be down to heat radiation and affecting the m/s fuel line. It is very easy to get fuel vaporisation with modern fuel! That is why s/s exhaust manifolds are not liked by the racers! Bruce. Thank you. It's been ok up until today. Tank was low, less than 1/4 full and very hot weather. The pump is under the rear wheel arch and was very warm to touch so could be that but fancy getting a spare just in case. Thank you. It's been ok up until today. Tank was low, less than 1/4 full and very hot weather. The pump is under the rear wheel arch and was very warm to touch so could be that but fancy getting a spare just in case.ave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kwackersaki Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 It is a stainless pipe and the pump is positioned right in the wheel arch along the chassis. It was a very hot day and we weren't at speed cruising in traffic which didn't help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
simonjrwinter Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 " If it was good enough to run the Lucas injection on DFV engines " Yes, but . . . . . on competition installations the Lucas pump was generally only there to provide initial starting impetus, thereafter the engine-driven mechanical pump took over . . . . . Cheers, Alec And probably serviced/checked or replaced after every outing.....not what you want to be doing! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 It is a stainless pipe and the pump is positioned right in the wheel arch along the chassis. It was a very hot day and we weren't at speed cruising in traffic which didn't help. It does sound like cavitation to me what is the bore size of your fuel pipe from tank to pump? Bruce Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kwackersaki Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 The pipe is 7.5mm. I recently renewed the rubber pipe and the original filter metal pipe was the same bore so didn't see the point of fitting larger rubber pipe unless I replaced the filter with a large bore version. I think it was definately cavitation due tolls tank and weather. Just been out with a full tank now it's cooler and it ran perfect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
njc Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 Interesting chat! I swapped back to a Lucas pump and filter under the tank... The Bosch unit failed and left me stranded. It didn't seem any more reliable to me than the Lucas set up and had pipes and tubes in and out of the boot to the wheel arch. Went back to the original Lucas set up with all the mountings in the right place but driven by new positive and negative wires to the battery (with fuse!) and switched via a relay from the old wiring (relay also in the boot next to pump) In hindsight, I wish I had fitted a fuel tap at the same time so I could drain/shut off fuel and work on the system. I also fitted a coil over pump to try to keep it cool but it doesn't seem to get that warm! It's not let me down yet and puts the car back to original design. In my view, it is the Lucas PI system that makes the TR6 stand out from the crowd. So if it works why change it? Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 The pipe is 7.5mm. I recently renewed the rubber pipe and the original filter metal pipe was the same bore so didn't see the point of fitting larger rubber pipe unless I replaced the filter with a large bore version. I think it was definately cavitation due tolls tank and weather. Just been out with a full tank now it's cooler and it ran perfect. 7.5 m/m bore pipe in my view based upon experience and Bosch Technical advice is far too small??? As you have now indicated that your car is running OK with a full tank! This is because the head of petrol in the tank increases the flow rate to the pump! Until it gets low again and the flow rate slows down! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kwackersaki Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 7.5 m/m bore pipe in my view based upon experience and Bosch Technical advice is far too small??? As you have now indicated that your car is running OK with a full tank! This is because the head of petrol in the tank increases the flow rate to the pump! Until it gets low again and the flow rate slows down! Bruce. Yes, good point re the flow rate. I will renew the pipe work at some point but for the time being keep it topped up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Yes, good point re the flow rate. I will renew the pipe work at some point but for the time being keep it topped up. Remember that a Bosch pump suitable for TR6 pressure, requires a minimum of 2.6 l/m at the pump flow rate at the pump, preferably 5 l/m on a full tank. This takes into account the head of fuel pressure drop as the petrol falls below a 1/4 tank. Hence the 10 m/m bore size pipe work or larger! To further highlight this point if you do this test on the original Lucas/CAV system at a Lucas TR6 pump you will get around 1 l/m on a 1/2 tank Not good enough in hot weather! .That's why CAV came out with a 3/8" bore mod kit for the 2.5 Saloons fitted by CAV service centres around where I live. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kwackersaki Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Does it matter that the feed pipe from the tank is 7.5mm or the metal pipes to and from the original filter are the same? Do You have to replace the entire system to 10mm in order to get the benefit? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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