qim Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 (edited) I'm going to have the front wheels aligned tomorrow morning and cannot find the specs not even online. Could someone help and tell me if fitting radials will alter the alignement needs? Thank you Edited March 17, 2017 by qim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 When I asked this question about 12 months ago, the answer was toe -in up to 1/8th inch. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 I agree with Ian. Tom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted March 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 By toe-in do you mean the wheels slightly facing inwards, by anything up to 1/8 in EACH? What about camber (whatever that is...)? Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 (edited) The toe in is described as for the car ie that is a combined amount or total of 1/8th inch, that means the front of the wheel and tyres point inwards more than the rear of the wheel ( therefore that is 1/16th inch on each side). Nothing special needs to be considered because you are to use radial tyres. The factory settings are shown here. Track at ground (static laden) 45 inches Castor - nil Wheel camber (static laden) 2 deg. at full bump 1/2 deg. at full rebound 1 deg. King pin inclination (static laden) 7 deg. Toe -in zero to 1/8 inch Length of centre tie-rod 19.44 inch Length of outer tie rod 7.68 inch Camber is the measurement of the angle described by the wheels and tyres when viewed from dead ahead ie if they look like this | | that would be 0 deg camber on each side. If the wheels are for example 2 deg negative on each side they would look something like this / \ or if positive camber like this \ / when viewed from the front. Without altering the top wishbones (shortening or lengthening or fitting specialist variable wishbones as sold by some of the specialists, no need unless you wish to change the handling) the camber will be as prescribed by the factory. Mick Richards. Edited March 17, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 ). Nothing special needs to be considered because you are to use radial tyres. Hi Mick many thanks. I will show this to the fitters and hope they understand it, but am I to understand from your comment abive that for radial tyres mome of the specs is necessary, and as long as the front tyres are aligned vertical and parallel, all's well? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Qim, I realise you are are close to completing a car here as you are doingthe tracking. However, did you consider the Revington Steering Lever conversion kit? http://www.revingtontr.com/product/rtr3314k/name/steering-geometry-imp-kit-tr2-3b Having fitted kits to our 3 cars we are thoroughly pleased with the results. The job can be completed in a morning without fuss and It really works with reduction/removal of 'bump steer' that the sidescreen cars are inherently prone to. ( the bumps in the road trying to take control of your steering and making your heart leap into your mouth) Sorry but the tracking will need doing after the fitting. When you have the car running and are enjoying the drive but not the feel of security on bumpy roads, then this mod could be for you. Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Hi Mick many thanks. I will show this to the fitters and hope they understand it, but am I to understand from your comment abive that for radial tyres mome of the specs is necessary, and as long as the front tyres are aligned vertical and parallel, all's well? Hi Qim, As long as you fit the standard top wishbones unmodified as they are and the rest of the suspension (uprights etc) is standard the camber of the wheels will be fixed as the factory standard numbers as shown on the post #5 which will be fine, these figures will suit either crossply OR radial tyres. The toe in is described as for the car ie that is a combined amount or total of 1/8th inch, that means the front of the wheel and tyres point inwards more than the rear of the wheel ( therefore that is 1/16th inch on each side) which is what it should be set at for you to try it and be able to make a judgement on whether the handling is what you want. The toe in helps keep the car going in the direction you point it, if the toe is reduced with the wheels becoming more parallel to each other the car will become more likely to start to "wandering" as it goes over varying road surfaces. Because the car has been dismantled it is necessary to achieve a "datum" and then decide what further you wish to do. The comment as mentioned by Peter W above relates to the modified steering levers we talked about previously (check your previous PMs) and owners who have fitted them remark positively upon their results. You can retrofit the items easily when the car is on the road and so that decision doesn't necessarily need to be made before you've tried the handling out when reassembled and reset as above. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 All modern equipment works on angles (i.e. degrees), not inches. I imagine we are talking about front wheels on a traditional TR with 15" wheels, where the specified 1/16" toe-in equates to 20 minutes of arc (one third of a degree). That's a figure which the garage should understand. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 All modern equipment works on angles (i.e. degrees), not inches. I imagine we are talking about front wheels on a traditional TR with 15" wheels, where the specified 1/16" toe-in equates to 20 minutes of arc (one third of a degree). That's a figure which the garage should understand. Ian Cornish Qim, If you use the 20 minutes of arc (thanks Ian for supplying the conversion) remember that figure is on each wheel because I presume the garage will do each wheel separately and need to double it if you wish a 1/8" toe in. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Hi and thank you all Well the car is now back with new tyres, and in the end the alignment was done by a very sophisticated machine and I have no idea if it took into consideration toe-ins, etc. In any case, I have to go back because they found that the silentbloc and pin bush that comes out of the steering box has too much play. Now, I saw that Revington do an uprated one and wonder if it is really worthwhile ordering that instead. Edited March 18, 2017 by qim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Regarding the Revington tie rod lever modification. Is this intended for use with the original steering gear or can it be used with rack and pinion conversions? Tom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Further to the above. When I fitted a TRBitz rack and pinion steering conversion I was told to transfer the tie rod levers from one side to the other (see photo). The steering works perfectly. Any observations please. Tom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Regarding the Revington tie rod lever modification. Is this intended for use with the original steering gear or can it be used with rack and pinion conversions? Tom. As I understand it the kit is produced to work with both the Revington rack conversion & the standard set up. I did a simple full bump to rebound check of the track on one side of my car before and after instalation and the kit almost completely removed the tracking changes as the suspension went through its full arc of movement. My car also has the Moss Delrin silentbloc replacements <<http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/steering-suspension/steering/bush-set-steering-pivot-pin-uprated-pair-105063x.html>> and a home made bronze bushed steering idler ( done using lower wishbone to trunion bushes and a 5/8 HT steel bolt from a B707 main structure attachment) http://www.revingtontr.com/product/rtr3002ex/name/idler-bushed-assy-tr2-3b >>trouble is that it is exchange so you would need tosend your old one back. or the ReVington pin kit, which is cheaper than the Moss http://www.revingtontr.com/product/105063uk/name/track-control-pin-kit-2-x-105063u-bush-pb Peter W PS To allow the steering rod joint to be as far out as possibe and as near the disc as possible I removed the dust shields from my car, on my brother's cars we got cute and pierced holes in the dusts shields using a plumbing tank cutter, so they look like bought ones. The further out the tie rod joint is the more Ackerman angle is achieved. Theoretical Lines drawn through centres of outer steering joints and V post swivel centre lines should cross in the centre of the car's rear axle - With a standard set up the lines cross in the middle of the car in front. Edited March 18, 2017 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Thank you Peter. Tom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Further to the above. When I fitted a TRBitz rack and pinion steering conversion I was told to transfer the tie rod levers from one side to the other (see photo). The steering works perfectly. Any observations please. Tom. R & P - Copy.jpg I would say that swapping the steering arms over has achieved very similar result as the Revington kit. (why didn't I think of that !) Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Thank you Bob ~ Good news then! John Sykes advised me to carry out this mod. Regards ~Tom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Hi It's getting too technical for me! If I buy the silentblock from Revington, as they come in a pair, I assume I have to change both the one under the steering box and the other at the end of the arm. Can this be done on the existing original TR3A parts fitted to the car, at the moment? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Hi qim ~ Nothing is too technical! Have you got a Workshop Manual? This is a good starting point for all aspects of your car. The Silentblocks should be fitted in pairs. Tom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Hi Tom But can they be fitted on the existing, original parts? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Hi qim ~ I would think that the Revington parts are an upgrade for the originals so you can certainly fit them. Tom. Edited March 18, 2017 by Fireman049 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Yes. They fit into the centre track rod. The most problem you will have will be getting the old ones out. Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 They are a horror show compared to the originals to extract the taper from the idler/strg drop arm lever. Less space between lever and bar when assembled to get a wedge in to separate. Precious little room to swing a hammer to distort the 'eye' I eventually used a jack from below on the pin end with nut loosely fitted then a steel block one side and 4X air hammer with brass drift the other of the lever eye. Popped in the end. Mind the radiator!!! Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Thank God I don't have to do that myself! I'll warn the mech. Edited March 18, 2017 by qim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Further to the above. When I fitted a TRBitz rack and pinion steering conversion I was told to transfer the tie rod levers from one side to the other (see photo). The steering works perfectly. Any observations please. Tom. R & P - Copy.jpg Reversing the lever arms moves the track rod ends out but the Revington kit will move them further out, i.e. nearer to the back of the disc. They will end up with about 2mm clearance from the back of the disc. Rgds Ian PS Because the T/R ends are so close to the disc you may end up having to fettle them with an angle grinder to ensure that there is clearance at full lock in either direction so it isn't a totally straightforward job fitting them. You can also adjust the packing washers behind the lever arms, so there is a bit of trial and error fit up required before you tighten everything up with the Nyloc nuts. The end result is good though. Edited March 19, 2017 by Ian Vincent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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