ctc77965o Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Hey All, In March I went on a long drive across Malaysia from penang via cameron highlands to east coast and up to kota baru. As I descended cameron highlands the misfire became obvious...a few hours later and the loud banging noise under power was disturbing the locals... Today I finally had a chance to dig in and fix the problem....my cam lost one lobe almost completely...this cam has 120kmiles fitted in 1992 from C&B. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18oPAukFCEebHFKcTE0RkZJYjA/view?usp=docslist_api https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18oPAukFCEea040RWJvY296Tzg/view?usp=docslist_api Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Gosh, nasty! The 'unworn' one, does look a bit beaten up around the tip. Do you think this was senile dementia, or an individual problem? Once a cam lobe starts to go ... John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Hey All, In March I went on a long drive across Malaysia from penang via cameron highlands to east coast and up to kota baru. As I descended cameron highlands the misfire became obvious...a few hours later and the loud banging noise under power was disturbing the locals... Today I finally had a chance to dig in and fix the problem....my cam lost one lobe almost completely...this cam has 120kmiles fitted in 1992 from C&B. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18oPAukFCEebHFKcTE0RkZJYjA/view?usp=docslist_api https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18oPAukFCEea040RWJvY296Tzg/view?usp=docslist_api From a simply academic point of view - What engine oil were you using? What state are the followers in? I am not reserecting the ZDDP threads. Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted December 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Followers 8 and 4 were particularly nasty. In this pic 8 is closest to camerahttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18oPAukFCEeYklSanl3QTFIeVE/view?usp=docslist_api Oil wise I have always used 20W50, a variety of brands and never the el cheapo ones. I have reassembled with decent cam lube with new cam and followers and chain... Will get it back together tomorrow morning and run it at 2000 revs for 15mins for bed in the new bits...I am hoping that the swarf in the sump is picked up by the magnet and filter...I am not interested to strip the whole thing now, I expect it will behave just fine with some fresh oil and some regular filter changes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted December 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 I guess it's crappy follower quality as a root cause... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Jones Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 No direct experience of the TR 4-pot but on the small 4-pot and 6-pot engines I've noticed that the end lobes (1 & 8 in this case) are often the worst/fail first. My thinking is that this is a lubrication thing as they see splash lubrication from fewer directions. Once you are through the hardening on the cam wear is very rapid (as you found!). 120k is not too bad, though more should be possible. You might want to do a couple of oil changes in quick succession (maybe with some engine flush) to try and wash out the swarf a bit. Shouldn't ever get as far as the bearings due to the oil filter but could do the pump some mischief. If your oil pressure is still as it was then I guess you got away with it! Good luck! Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 "Oil wise I have always used 20W50, a variety of brands and never the el cheapo ones." Oils suitable for modern petrol engines with catalytic converters will not be suitable for TR engines: they lack ZDDP, which would kill the cat. The ZDDP in oil specifically formulated for classics is needed to protect flat tappets from wear. ZDDP content of various classic 20/50 oils are here: http://www.classic-oils.net/Oils-by-Application-and-Type/Four-Stroke-Engine-Oils/Classic-20W50-Multigrades-Mineral-base What oil was in the engine when the tappet/lobe died? Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eddie Cairns Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Peter Make up your mind here. You go on about ZDDP and you claim to be a Scientist. These numbers are zinc content, not the ZDDP content of the oil. These are two different things. There is no way to work out what is zinc in the oil not in ZDDP and the amount of the zinc in the ZDDP compound in the oil from a base zinc oil content! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Interesting that Penrite "Classic Light" has the highest ZDDP content of the range - is this the same product as Penrite "Classic Triumph" (which I am currently using) ? Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Eddie, Care to put information where your mouth is? I can recommend a book, "What Oil?" by Richard Michell, whose whole career was in the oil industry. Page 112, he points out the the critical element in ZDTP (Zinc DiThioPhosphate) is the Sulphur ('thio) as a wear protection factor,NOT zinc, and that it was Phosphorus in oils that needed to be reduced to protect catalysts. There is LOT more to this, and Richard devotes four and a half pages to the subject, so it would be unfair to him (and too much work for me) to precis his account here. I can thoroughly recommend his book, available from Veloce Publishing. Their website is http://www.veloce.co.uk/but it is presently overwhelmed, no doubt with late Xmas shoppers buying you a copy! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Peter Make up your mind here. You go on about ZDDP and you claim to be a Scientist. These numbers are zinc content, not the ZDDP content of the oil. These are two different things. There is no way to work out what is zinc in the oil not in ZDDP and the amount of the zinc in the ZDDP compound in the oil from a base zinc oil content! It is a valid claim, and you can expect a considered answer, as you would get from any scientist. This paper tells us the zinc content of the base oil, and how it compares with oils with Zn-based additive. The base [Zn] is negligible. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4lnHpIRPHg8J:downloads.hindawi.com/journals/jamc/2005/981608.pdf+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I am using BP Vanellus Q 20W50 API CF/SF of course, they always write 'exceeds API...' so that could mean anything in terms of ZDDP etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I am using BP Vanellus Q 20W50 API CF/SF of course, they always write 'exceeds API...' so that could mean anything in terms of ZDDP etc. Dave, Yes, And its a b888er trying to find the exact spec. Page 22 here: http://ybpetroleum.com/new//docstation/com_docstation/8/bp_technical_guide.pdf - shows Vanellus 25W/50 as an oil for older diesels. " Meets API CF/SF" But no info on Zn or P. Here's another diesel oil that "meets or exceeds API CF/SF" and it only has 500ppm ZDDP (expressed as Zn or P) Probably wiser to stick with an oil that states the ZDDP content and is stated as being suitable for classics. But I can see that being a problem at your location. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Well it's fixed with a cam n followers from Bastuck in Germany. Took about 8hrs in total, 1pm yesterday until 3pm today ... If this one also last 100kmiles then I guess I am happy. As hilited, getting good oil out in Asia is problematic. I can buy all the whzzo watery synthetics, but gloopy 20/50 is hard to find. I think the diesel engine oils aren't a bad choice ... Its the only branded 20/50 in town (with exception of castrol 20/50 API SM). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 think about http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290470073699?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 If I may, Richard Michell deals with the Q of using diesel oils that have lots of ZDTP. He condemns using them in non-diesel engines, because they are designed for diesel engines, not petrol engines. Bit like wearing wellingtons on Strictly - as footwear they are excellent in wet and muddy conditions, but not for dancing! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Hi John, Maybe, but the oil I am using has a service rating as well as a commercial one, so it's suited to both.I don't know if you would call my cam failure a premature one. I replaced it in 92 because the original (likely factory) had gone the same way at 140k miles...(No6 cam I recall)... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) think about http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290470073699?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Peter W Thats what I would do in this situation. But the ZDDP concentration 0.15% in the above additive is only 1500 ppm. Thats close to the final concentration needed in the oil, so there's not much room for dilution to, say ,1200ppm. I'd add concentrate to a petrol oil as diesel oils usually have more detergents and that tends to strip off the deposited ZDDP. Peter This appears to be mroe concentrated: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-ZDDP-MAXX-ENGINE-OIL-ZDDP-ADDITIVE-ZINC-PHOSPHORUS-/281023646674?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368 Edited December 21, 2015 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 And you can get ZDTP/ZDDP as an additive in a bottle: http://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_Break-In-Additive.pdf Diluted as suggested - 11 times - will get you 5000 ppm of Zinc with the corresponding Sulphur. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted December 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 A quick test run Xmas Eve proved all is good! https://goo.gl/maps/1pbqZ5AYFsJ2 With hindsight that cam wear started a few years back on a run to singapore when the engine became lumpier under power (idled fine) and started to get hotter in traffic... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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