TPTHURLOW Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi all, I'm having some trouble bleeding the clutch. I have fitted a new master and slave cylinder, along with flexi pipe and new copper pipe. The first time I tried bleeding it I could get a gear but only after a couple of pumps. I noticed when I was bleeding the system that as I was pumping the pedal, fluid was being ejected from the top of reservoir when the cap was off. I spoke to Revington and they said that that might mean the master cylinder is faulty so I ordered a new one. I fitted that this afternoon but am having the same issue. Surely it cant be two faulty cylinders? The pedal feels very light but there is plenty of movement on the arm at the slave end. I have fitted the pushrod of the slave on the middle hole of the lever but the push rod is at a slight angle, it looks like it would be better on the bottom hole of the arm (see pic) Would this make a difference? (I have since turned the slave around so that the bleed nipple is at the top).Could it be that I still have some air trapped? It is a late tr3 with a girling system and a shared but separate reservoir (post TS13046) Many thanks, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hpremote Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hi, Tom: having looked at your pic, I think the slave should be rotated 180', so the bleed nipple is positioned at the top and the flexi at bottom. Good luck, Tim. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 Yes, Tim's absolutely right! The bleed nipple should be at the top otherwise you'll never get rid of the air in the system. Everyone should check the positions of old units before removing them. Tom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPTHURLOW Posted December 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 As mentioned I have already turned it over, this photo was taken before but made no difference. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hpremote Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 Oops - sorry; must keep awake at the back. I position my clutch pushrod in the bottom hole of the lever. That said, it does sound as if it's hydraulic-linked. Coincidentally, I'm also in the process of renewing my two cylinders, the reason being that I suddenly began losing clutch pedal firmness - with consequent drag when changing gear. I'm a morning's work behind you! Advice from the forum has been to ensure that there's sufficient m/cyl piston travel, ie. that the pedal adjustment at the m/cyl link is providing enough. However, I have a pessimist TR mate who is laying money on the cause being a sheared taper pin in the release bearing fork - so I'm psyched up for a g/box removal, should it come to it! Cheers, Tim. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPTHURLOW Posted December 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 I've had the box off recently and done no miles since so I'll be surprised if it is that (fingers crossed anyway!) Maybe I didn't put everything back together correctly? I'll check the m/cyl travel again tomorrow and put the rod on the bottom hole as you mentioned. I'm not sure whether fluid occasionally squirting out the top of the reservoir is normal if that has something to do with it? Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 I had a similar problem with TuRK and positioned the rod at the bottom and it resolved the issue; that's on a diaphragm clutch conversion. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 I had a similar problem with TuRK and positioned the rod at the bottom and it resolved the issue; that's on a diaphragm clutch conversion - Edit: a worthwhile upgrade! Cheers Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) I had the same problem with my Saab 96 a few years back when i had to renew a collapsted flexibel hose between the clutch cylinders. Even with an Easybleed, the problems stayed the same. A befriended mechanic found the solution: When opening the bleed nipple, the fluid came out every time I pumped the pedal (or used the E'bleed). But on the 'return', air was drawn in alongside the screw thread of the nipple!! The solution: I took out the complete bleed nipple and smeared a little amount of copper greese on the thread, making it impossible for 'fresh air' to be drawn in. Fixed the problem within minutes after he told me the tip. Menno Edited December 22, 2013 by Menno van Rij 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve R Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 Hi Tom Your slave cylinder should be on the other side of the bracket, so you're missing out on another 1/2 inch or so of travel, and as the piston does not fully retract you have to pump it a bit before you have enough movement. Steve Happy Christmas Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 The rod should be connected to the centre hole on the lever arm. I know this looks a little odd as far as alignment is concerned, but it is correct for a 4-pot TR2/3/4.. The photo in my TR2 Workshop Manual (a genuine ST version, bought in the early 1960s) shows the rod connected to the lower hole, but that is incorrect for a 4-pot TR. My TR4 ST Workshop Manual shows the correct fixing (centre hole of 3). Fixing to the lower hole will reduce the effort required, but at the expense of the amount of movement applied to the clutch itself, possibly with the result that it may fail to disengage completely, thus affecting gear changes. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rodbr Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 (edited) Not absolutely clear from your picture but it appears as if your do not have the brace bar from slave cylinder bracket to sump bolt , Page 25 Moss catalogue item 71 Girling system (same as Lockheed). You can sometimes get a degree of flex in the bracket, best to eliminate all potential issues before tackling others. As already pointed out the slave cylinder needs to be turned 180 so that the bleed nipple is at the top, you will never bleed it properly as the air get trapped at the top which is not going to come out the bleed nipple. If it was me I would also fit an opened up jiggle split pin in the drain, and block up the other holes visible in the bell housing. If you have the Girling system I suggest an old trick from years ago. (worked on all actually) Pump peddle to get pressure on the system. On the last pump hold the pedal down and block it from returning with pressure. Batten of wood against the dash or steering wheel Check position of clutch arm and walk away for 24 hours or overnight. First checking the fluid level. In the morning release the batten and you should have a firm pedal. Not sure why it works but I assure you it does and works for brake system as well. If you have a leak the pedal will be loose the following morning and you have illiminated one more thing. As final suggestion fit these all round , so easy to bleed the brakes on your own. http://www.speedbleeder.com/ Edited December 23, 2013 by Rodbr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPTHURLOW Posted December 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 Thanks for all the advice. Steve in about 70% of the images I have seen the cylinder is fitted on the side that I have mine on, but what you say makes sense so I will give it a try.. Rodbr, initially the brace bar was not fitted, I am fairly new to tr3s so didn't realise it was missing but one is fitted now. There is a lot less flex than before. I am unsure what the other holes in the bellhousing are, they look like an old bodge!? I'll have a look later today and let you know how I get on. Many thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rodbr Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 There are two different mounting brackets for the slave cylinders and they are mounted on different sides of the bell housing/block interface. Different part numbers and shape, Moss parts catalogue page 26 Type into Google the following: "Tr3 clutch release cylinder pictures" go through the pictures and try to identify what you actually have and compare set up of same. It could be the case that you have the wrong plate or the correct one mounted on the wrong side of the bell housing, both issues effectively move the position of the slave cylinder. It may be that someone has changed a part previously that looked similar. If you get the wrong combination you will damage the clutch assembly. Rod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPTHURLOW Posted December 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 Thanks Rod, Looking at moss and various images on the internet and in manuals I have the correct bracket and the slave is on the correct side of it. However the car has been through the mill in its life and at some point in the past the car was converted to girling hydraulics from a lockheed set up. When I stripped the car, in my haste, I did not pay attention to what the old slave looked like or what side it was fitted. Could it be possible that fitting a lockheed type slave would solve it? Or do you think putting the current girling slave on the "wrong side" of the bracket would make up for it? Are there any other differences between the 2 systems other than the hydraulics? Hopefully you understand what I mean! Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rodbr Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 Hi Tom, I think I understand what you mean and it does just highlight the value of dismantling photos and never getting rid of parts that you intend to replace. The only thing could be that the length of the rod is different so making the clutch throw shorter IF ALL THE RIGHT COMPONENTS HAVE BEEN FITTED FOR THE GIRLING SYSTEM.I can only suggest that you try combinations if not absolutely sure of the correct components being available. The main issue is surely that you can not bleed the system so i suggest that you tackle that first by turning the slave cylinder 180 and see how you go from there, try my trick to get the air out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Harris Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 Make sure you have end play in the master cylinder push rod. If you have disc brakes the adjusters for the pedal travel should be removed, this could be why you are getting a squirt of fluid in the reservoir. The other thing is you only get about one and a half pumps of the pedal before the reservoir is empty. Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPTHURLOW Posted December 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 Problem solved, had a look this afternoon with a couple of others and decided to try a combination of your suggestions. We put the slave on the otherside of the bracket as we decided there wasn't enough movement in the arm to disengage the clutch. It seems odd though as almost every diagram I can see of my set up shows the slave on the other side of the bracket. It all works fine now though. Thanks very much for all your comments, should be back on the road after 11 years shortly! Happy Christamas everyone, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peterdr Posted December 27, 2013 Report Share Posted December 27, 2013 There are two different mounting brackets for the slave cylinders and they are mounted on different sides of the bell housing/block interface. Different part numbers and shape, Moss parts catalogue page 26 Type into Google the following: "Tr3 clutch release cylinder pictures" go through the pictures and try to identify what you actually have and compare set up of same. It could be the case that you have the wrong plate or the correct one mounted on the wrong side of the bell housing, both issues effectively move the position of the slave cylinder. It may be that someone has changed a part previously that looked similar. If you get the wrong combination you will damage the clutch assembly. Rod Rod - thanks for sharing that great trick with the batten. Tried it out on my 3a overnight, and this morning the brake pedal had a much better feel. Had no problem at all bleeding my clutch, but getting a firm pedal with the brakes was proving a real challenge, this trick fixed it! cheers Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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