chalky Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Having almost reached the end of a long restoration on my TR3a I thought it might be a good idea to fit a roll bar along with seat belts. It proved to be impossible, as the bar I bought from Moss, when fitted, fouls the section behind the seats just where the seat belt main retractable unit fits. I also discovered that it won't fit inside the frame of the hood. Anyone encounter these problems? and if so did you get you over them or did you, like me, ditch the rollbar. Perhaps they are made for racing and risky situations rather than in day today driving. Chalky ??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jean Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Chalky, I had the same problem on my TR3A when I wanted to fit an Aerodynamic Type of Roll Over bar. I understand you speek about a Roll Over bar, In general roll bars are fitted to the suspension to prevent car roll. I had purchased the Bar from Revington and swapped it against a standard Roll Over bar made also by Safety Devices This is a bar for road use, not for racing and it mounts on the inner wheel arches and clears just the hood frame. I have fitted a 4 point harness of which the shoulder straps are attached to a crossbar mounted to the rear mounting points. All fits very well. Jean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
clive Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 A harness fitted to the roll bar is much more likely to restrain you than an innertia real type fitted to a bit of body work that was not realy designed for that amount of force. When considering if you want to be strapped in during a head on collision have a think about where the steering colum will be pushed (especially the earlier one piece type). You may decide it's best to chance a dive onto the passengers lap instead of being held tightly in the direct line of fire! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Lay Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Interesting as I also want to fit a roll 'over' bar on TS952. I don't want a competition bar but one with a diagonal brace that will keep my head off the road if the unimaginable happens and preferably bolted/welded to the chassis. I like chalky had assumed that fitting would be no problem + the hood would go up as usual, it just shows how wrong you can be. Any suggestions? Regards, Nigel. As a postscript many years ago I was passenger in a car that went over - an 1800 of all things and it was definitely a 'brown trouser job!' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chalky Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 You've made some good points, especially the comment about being behind the steering wheel which is tightly aimed at the chest. I thought seat belts would be good for the passenger though ( I may choose not to put mine on). I had thought of the connection onto bodywork and fitted a thick steel washer to the connecting bolts. I think I will forget the roll over bar for now. Chalky ??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jean Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Clive, I think you will have to hit a wall to push the steering column back. A member of our club had, some years ago, a front on collision with a Range Rover. There was very little damage to the chassis, only the body was bent, but the steering column did not move. The injuries to him and the passenger were produced by the pedals and the screen stanchions. For road use a wheel arch mounted Roll Over bar is sufficient, as in road accidents the car slides and forward movement is mostly transformed in roll movement. This understands that you do not turn over at a speed of 120mph. At that speed, due to inertia not all forward movement can be taken up by roll, but only a full cage will allow for reasonable protection. I other cases cars often end up side down because they are hit by another vehicle, and now the bar will prevent the car from ending up flat on the ground or will probably even allow for a full roll as the bottom of the car is heavier than the top side. The only reason for me to not fit a roll bar would be that it surely disturbs the general appearance of the car. On the other hand I' m not taking any risk, it's dangerous enough out there. Jean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 You've made some good points, especially the comment about being behind the steering wheel which is tightly aimed at the chest. I thought seat belts would be good for the passenger though ( I may choose not to put mine on). I had thought of the connection onto bodywork and fitted a thick steel washer to the connecting bolts. I think I will forget the roll over bar for now. Chalky ??? Lap and diagonal belt will not stop you diving to the near-side, whereas a full harness would. If belts are fitted, you are obliged to use them, or take a fine, only if they're not fitted, can you get away without them! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chalky Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks everybody. Some good advice. Chalky Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest chris jameson Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Does anybody have any statistics of sidescreen rollover accidents? I would suggest that being `T' boned in the door wouldn't be too special either. Or rear ended for that matter, sitting as you do in front of a large tank of petrol I am 187cm, and feel a little bit exposed without a rollover bar; even lying on the passenger leaves the shoulder exposed. I guess that driving a sidescreen is a bit like riding a motorbike, (protection wise) and you need to use your `superior' driving skills to keep you out of these sticky situations... Cheers, Chris 1960 TR3A TS78655 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 I agree with Jean that seatbelts will help minimise injurys in normal accidents, if the accident is so grave that it moves the steering column then no matter what you probably are not going to survive anyway. If you dont have a seatbelt then you risk inpaling yourself on the steering wheel/ column you will also find that the forward momentum will jam your feet under the pedals at exactly the same time as your upper body contacts the steering wheel and your head bounces off the windscreen/windscreen surround. I had a friend when I was a teenager who hated seatbelts when he was killed in an accident at around 50MPH in his escort the first thing that happened was his foot got caught under the pedals then as the momentum propelled him head first through the windscreen (your head is one of the heaviest parts of your body) his right foot was torn off under the brake pedal. I am sorry Clive but you will not have the time to dive on your passangers lap, reaction time 1 second, time to get the muscles to respond and move 1 second. That is of course after you have realised that you will not be able to stop and are going to have an accident. If you have 3 free seconds then you will have time to avoid the accident! I love seatbelts they have saved my life twice now and the life of my son when we were rammed from behind at high speed by a drunk driver ( dont get me started on that one ). If you have them use them if you dont get them fitted ! I will now climb down off my high horse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jean Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Chris, you make a good point. I heard from rear end collision where a TR3 was hit by a SUV. The TR3 was pushed into the car in front and the body was then folded at door height, the chassis remaining straight, to say that due to the difference in height the SUV pushed the body over the chassis. On my TR6 for some extra protection I have fixed a metal panel behind the cardboard, this might retard fire to spread into the passenger compartment Jean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
clive Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 ...I may choose not to put mine on... If it's fitted you have to wear it! That's the law! So, if you might not wear it, don't even fit it! Also, once they are fitted, then to pass the MOT test they have to work and be in good order. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chalky Posted November 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Thanks for all your comments. I will wear the seat belt and not distmantle it. Having read all your comments, I feel that I will have a safer ride in wearing a seat belt than not. I guess it's a good idea to carry a fire extinguisher on board as well. Chalky Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Good idea Chalky, touch wood I've never needed mine for myself, but have used 2 on others' vehicles - not TRs I'm glad to say! Dry powder or the green ones (used to be Halon?) are the best for vehicles generally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Halon is very effective, but environmentally unfriendly (at least this year's theory!), and for all practical purposes illegal to use. Personally I don't give a toss, I'll use the one in my garage rather than getting fried !! I'll not be replacing mine as long as it's got full pressure, until it's been used, when you look at the muck a jet chucks out on take off, what's a little bit of BCF....mind you the air-con in my Pug is R34a and that's eco-friendly, so I'm doing my bit! It's like these wind turbines, wonderful clean power as long as the wind's blowing hard enough, but not too hard (they stop them and lock them when it's windy), and in their life-time they don't produce as much power as it takes to manufacture them, dig and prepare the bases, transport them, erect them etc., but someone's making a bundle! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
svs451 Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 To be honest I can believe the comments made from TR divers re their abilities to stop accidents and dive out the way of the 5ft spikes they sit behind in early Tr's. I’m lucky I own a mid production 3A so I have a split column but I have fitted a basic rollover and have three point harnesses. I drive safe in the knowledge that if the car was to be inverted I may get out, without a roll bar its unlikely. I am also concerned with the lack of neck protection given by early seats as the likelihood of spinal injury his nearly 100% is you are hit or you are involved in any collision My father served the community for 40 years in the fire service and has dug many a corpse from cars without rollover protection, and in the end it was his nagging that got me to fit my roll over bar. What price would you put on your life and the life of your passenger, the price of an ugly lump of metal? How many of us are on original chassis? Speak to a metallurgist and ask at what rate does steel corrode. Have you ever considered that your shiny chassis that has been externally “restored” is actually badly internally corroded and actually 50% weaker than when produced? I know mine is as I have had to repair it and it will be replaced soon with a CTM item. How will that stand up in an impact? So do you really want stats and adopt the its one in 100000000 so it wont happen to me attitude or would you prefer to deal with the reality or what happens when you dig in a front wheel in and invert from spirited back road driving. At the end of the day life is always about personal choice, Limit the risks and enjoy your car. But don’t think you will be afforded the safety of a Volvo with 5 encap stars. Regards Neurotic Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest chris jameson Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Hi Neurotic Dave, Yes, I agree that it is a sound idea to minimize the risk, but driving a 60's or 70's sportscar is never going to be safe.....whatever you do to your car.... I work in the air ambulance industry, and see a lot of rollover accidents...Survival is largely a matter of luck. I am convinced that when your number is up..... That does not mean I adopt a risk taking attitude; far from it. I use my driving skills accumulated over 30 years to avoid dangerous situations....and I drive the TR in a relatively conservative manner...At 6' 2'' (187 cm), even with a rollover bar, my head is going to be pretty unprotected... But that is a part of the thrill of blasting about in a classic sportscar....I find it stress relieving and exhilarating...but I have no illusions as to how I would come off against a large family sedan or four wheel drive monster.... Interestingly after 8 years with air ambulance, I have only seen one inverted 2 seater sports car....a Z3... Cheers, Chris 1960 TR3A TS 78655 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Neurotic Dave's comment regarding lack of neck protection on early cars struck a chord with me. My TR3A is about to undergo major restoration and I am wondering whether to reinstall the existing (untrimmed) Aley Aero rollover bar or look for something with built-in seat-belt mountings and neck supports. Do such bars exist or would I need to have one custom built? I am aware that I could fit TR6, Mazda or standard rally/racing bucket seats which would solve the neck worry, but as my seats have already been re-upholstered in red leather and the rest of the interior trim is new, I would prefer not to discard them. Has anyone got ideas for fitting neck supports to standard seats or to a rollover bar? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
j-eichert Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hello there, I am no car engineer, but regarding head rests I wonder if the seat rails will hold seats with head rest in case of an accident. As I see it, they are just bolted to the floor panel, that is supported by the frame as long as the load follows the path of Newton's apple. As this is a flat panel, I can imagine it's shape after somebody falling with some g against the high seat back. So I share the opinion of some earlier posts: if you want to drive safe, by a Mercedes SLK with automatically closing roof in case of a roll-over (OK, I invented that, but one day will put some kind of fast closing mechanism there, trust me :: ) If you want to make them safe, you have to start with basics of the construction to make it right. You have a solid frame, a soft body, a straight steering column, no safety belts, no head rests, no roll-over bar, a single circuit brake, no air bags, no padded dash board, sharp parts under the dashboard, no safety lock on the doors, no side impact protection, no ABS, no traction control, no electronic stability programm,... we are polluting the air without catalyst, ...no warm air for the neck The cars we love are 50 years old now, so there construction is outdated now, not only regarding the safety aspects. But this is one reason why we love them : For being so "pure" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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