Lockheed rear brakes

[Rodbr]

Good Morning Peeps,

Can anyone assist with some information regarding Lockheed rear brake components, as need to understand what differences there are with the Lockheed 9"and Girling 9" rear brakes and are the shoes,and more particularly the drums interchangeable. I understand that the drums require the wheel stud holes need to be opened out to suit 9/16th shoulder. I do not have any wheel studs so do I only need to open out the location lug hole?

Do 9" Alfins fit to the early Lockheed axle with only this modification.

The wheel cylinders appear to be the same part number for either Lockheed 9" or 10" brakes so anticipate that the bores are the same. Not exactly clear about the width of the brake shoes between Lockheed 9" and Girling 9". Are both 1 3/4"?

Any input welcome.

 

Rgds

Rod

[John Saunders]

Hi Rod,

 

The 9 inch and ten inch rear brake assemblies are interchangeable, but only as a set. By that I mean that the back plate, drum and brake linings are unique to either the 9 or ten inch and cannot be interchanged with the other size. Also brake shoe springs are larger and heavier duty on the ten inch set compared to the nine inch items..

A few parts such as the wheel cylinders, are the same. wheel hubs are the same, so you change over the two sets on the axle.

As you will note from above, yes a nine inch Alfin can be fitted, but only to the nine inch back plate and nine inch brake shoes. Similarly a ten inch Alfin only fits the ten inch. The ten inch brake shoes are significantly larger, than the nine inch, tho, not much, if any, on the width.

For what it is worth, for originality or Concours purpose, fit the correct original size. The nine inch are not common these days. For efficiency fit the ten inch size !

 

Hope this explains it for you. Cheers, JMS

Edited March 7, 2010 by John Saunders

[vivdownunder]

Rod, the 9" and 10" rear brakes are interchangeable in sets as John says, but only on their original Lockheed or Girling axle.

 

The backing plate assemblies including shoes, are not interchangeable between axles. Lockheed has a 4 bolt backing plate mount, but Girling is 6 bolt.

 

Lockheed 9" wheel cylinders were different to the 10" item, but only in the handbrake lever mount, not the bore.

 

Rear drums are the same item for either axle, whether they be 9" or 10". (Rear drums didn't change until the TR4A.)

 

I've not heard of drums needing any wheel stud changes between axles, as they just sit on the plain stud between the hub and the wheel.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[stuart]

The point I think that Rod is trying to get at is the 9" Alfins that are being offered at the moment are originally designed for Datsun 240z application so do they need any more modification to fit a 9" early Lockheed axle with the early type wire hubs rather than bolt on adapter type.

Stuart.

Edited March 7, 2010 by stuart

[Don Elliott]

I seem to remember reading from the TR race sites that the Datsun Alfin drums need to have the central locating hole bored out either in the diameter of the hole or maybe it's only a step in the hole that needs to be bored so the drums can fit onto a TR.

[Alec Pringle]

At least some of the pseudo-Alfin reworked-nippobox drums on the market might be better employed as frisbees.

 

Tony Scheach (TR4 Tony) knows more than most about making a useable set of TR drums from castoff riceburner parts.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

Edited March 8, 2010 by Alec Pringle

[Rodbr]

I thought I had made it clear but maybe not!

I have Lockheed 9" brakes fitted on my car which appear to be original and the question was what parts if any, are interchangeable with or more aptly by Girling parts. i.e do Girling 9" drums fit the early 9" lockheed axle.

 

MOSS list 9" Alfins in the catalogue but refer to a modification to the hub bolt holes.

 

The relevance of this is more about ordering parts at a later stage.

 

What is unclear but probably accounted for in the back plate is the move to wider brake shoes in that the wheel cylinders need to project 3/4" further out to accomodate the wider shoes and drums.

 

I have both 9" and 10" axles for comparison of all components but it doesn't help with ordering.

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Rod,

 

it's a long time since I last had paws on 9" Lockheeds, but as far as I remember from a frustrating weekend in the 70s, absolutely nothing is interchangeable from the later 9" Girling system to the early 9" Lockheed system. At least not without some significant re-engineering.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[John Saunders]

Hi Rod, Apologies if my first response didnt clear up your query. I will try again.

Firstly to the best of my recollection there is no reason why a girling nine inch drum will not fit a lockheed nine inch set up. I seem to recall doing exactly that, because they could be found in better condition, but it was some time ago.

Secondly, your real query seems to be about replica (Japanese)drums and fitting to Lockheed. These drums have only become available relatively recently, so there is not much info. around about them. I would suggest that the problem is likely to be that they will be thicker around the centre than your ordinary drum. Also they may use a different fixing instead of the ordinary slot screws that hold your TR drum in place. You may therefore have to flare the end of the hole where the screw is fitted in, to take your original screws.

BUT one thing for sure, the person most likely to know about these Japanese drums is Tony Sheach. The other possibility would be TR Enterprises. Simon ( and of course Steve), who are well into Racing, should have knowledge of what is involved and even whether it is worth while.

Hope this helps this time. Cheers, JOhn S

[Tr4Tony]

Hi

 

On these drums ...

 

The radially 9.045 inch finned type (lets call them 9 inch) were originally fitted to the Datsun 240z and were dimensionally fairly close to the Girling TR 9 inch drum. However, they were NEVER directly interchangeable on any of the TR Hubs or backplates. This did put a lot of people off in the time but as far as im aware a lot of competition minded owners of TR's scavenged the scrapyards and carried out the necessary machining work to make them fit.

 

Datsun obviously sold them new as spare parts through dealers and later BREMBO bought the rights to the production and offered replacements for the Datsun cars.

 

Currently the 9 inch radially finned drums that I have seen are being produced by BASTUCK for Germany (as far as I am told by a Turkish foundry) as a 'blank' and then machined to fit a 'universal' TR hub and backplate set up. Bear in mind that there are 7 minor dimensional differences between the TR2 - TR6 hub ends and the various TR3a to Tr6 backplates, as unbelievably these are also slightly different. Reproduction steel hubs are slightly different again 9and there are at least 2 types of these available in the shops today).

 

The circumferentially finned drums currently being sold are another separate matter. Whilst these seem to 'bolt on' better as they are machined 'bigger' in the critical areas so that they are a bit more 'universal', my personal experience is that the attachment of the steel liners to the alloy outer is weak and I know of two instances where the lining has parted company with the alloy outer.

 

Having gone through a process of having these Datsun derived drums (very) correctly machined for both (original) TR3a, TR4 and TR4a / TR5 IRS hubs and backplates I can confirm that each are slightly different and moreover that even if they were not, the currently available drums STILL need work to make them right. In some cases they bolt on better, but this isnt always the case which demonstrates at least some variability in quality.

 

The upshot of this in the context of the TR2 Lockheed axle is that I do not think a pair of these would bolt on. I DO think that getting a pair to fit would be achievable but this would require machining in the usual places, plus any fiddling which might be peculiar to the Lockheed set up, particularly around the hub area and where the backplate meets the drum.

 

If you want me to help you out let me know, but ill need to borrow a Lockheed axle to pass to my friend that actually does the metal cutting. He doesn't do it for free either.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[Rodbr]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the input.

The sales description given by R****r makes light of the technicality of fitting. Couple that with the fact I have splined hubs not boltons and we have a whole different ball game.

I may do this at a later date but for now I think it's got to be a back burner project.

Rgds

Rod