Cooling Problem Finally Solved

[TR3BGeorge]

Well, it was almost that bad: no coolant! Paul and I warmed up the engine, and he went to work with his heat sensor gun. Head was 270 degrees! Radiator was about 90º up top, and ice cold down below. So, I drained the radiator (less than a quart of coolant) so that we could start with the thermostat. The coolant was cold.

 

The thermostat was open, and closed right before our eyes, as it cooled in the air. He asked if there was coolant in the radiator and I told him that I could see it in the bottom of the neck. I asked him if there was any way that we could test and see If the new water pump was working. He said that we could fill the radiator back up, and crank the engine over and see if water spurts. With the housing still off, I re-filled the radiator with the drained coolant, and NO COOLANT SHOWED IN THE BLOCK. So, I started pouring new coolant into the radiator, AND POURED ONE WHOLE GALLON before it finally appeared in the engine block!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Paul had to get back to work, so I put it back together, having to do it two or three times because I couldn't figure in which order to attach the two components, thermostat, and hose connections. Of course, I put the forward hose component of the housing on upside down. I took it out for a spin, and with the 160º thermostat, I drove around for 30 minutes and couldn't even get the fan to come on, the engine ran so cool!!

 

SO HERE IS WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT MY CAR, AND CAN PASS ALONG TO OTHER TR3B OWNERS. The rule of thumb of "a little coolant in the neck" as being sufficient coolant is ****. I had a little water in the neck and my radiator was nearly empty!!! The cause? My radiator is probably a TR-4 radiator, as the neck is nearly horizontal, and is much longer than Paul's TR3B, which has a much shorter neck, with a steeper angle. So, when HIS neck has water in the bottom of it, his radiator is full. When MY neck has a little water in it, that doesn't mean ANYTHING. I am now driving with my neck HALF FULL of coolant.

 

So, there you have it. Thanks for bearing with me through this (Gordon Badwrench, Saga #1), and providing your ideas and moral support. If I live long enough, I should compose quite a compendium of these "exercises in futility." And you guys can keep them, for training your kids and grand-kids on how NOT to work on your Triumphs!!!

 

The Red River Shootout starts tomorrow afternoon, a 2-day event with us and the Oklahoma Triumph Club(s). The rally portion consists of a caravan of Triumphs "2 hours long." My kind of day!!! If you folks are going to attend, YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT ALREADY!!!

[BrianC]

Whilst there may be a little truth in your theory about the differences in radiators, I suspect that the real cause was simply an airlock caused by loss of coolant at some stage and failure to drain down and refill. Effectively, you have (more or less)done this now and that is probably what has fixed the problem. Fill the neck by all means, but expect to pump out some coolant when you first drive it and the level then (after cooling) should be about right.

[RogerH]

Hi George,

as you have been driving with no/little water in the block and the engine got quite hot keep an ear/eye out for any problems that may arise due to the high temp. I think you have said that you haven't managed to drive far because of the problems, so that would be a good thing.

 

Roger

Edited October 23, 2009 by RogerH

[BrianC]

Roger's advice is good - the last time I had a major overheating as a result of coolant loss, it was shortly followed by a blown head gasket. I can't be sure whether it was cause or effect, but it might be worth retorquing the cylinder head to just a few lb.ft. more as a precaution (back the nuts off a little first).

[Richardtr3a]

I over heated the engine and damaged the seal in the water pump. Howevet I did not find out until I had converted a replacement head for unleaded, skimmed it for flatness and replaced the old one.

I then found out the real cause of coolant loss which was the water punp seal.

If you want the neck full of water you can exchange the pressure cap for a plain sealing one and run a tube from the overflow to an expansion bottle with a pressurised cap. The water can now expand and contract at will and the rad is always full yto the top.It works well on mine.

Good luck,Richard

[Don Elliott]

A TR3A owner in Europe asked me for help with his overheating. He would start the TR and drive about 20 minutes and the engine would overheat. He would stop by the side of the road for the next 20 to 30 minutes - by this time the engine had cooled down. So he would continue his trip and it would never overheat till he went through the same ritual the next day.

 

I suggested he had an air lock in the coolant system and he should start out on his next trip with the radiator cap off. He did this. When the engine warmed up to the correct normal temperature, he put the cap back on as I had suggested. He never had the problem again. Leaving the cap off for 20 minutes while the engine warmed up and the pump was pumping had allowed the air lock to circulate and to rise and leave the system. He topped up with extra water to replace what was missing and . . .

 

Now you know the rest of the story.

 

Give this a try George.

 

Also did you make sure that your thermostat has a hole in it to allow some coolant to circulate before it fully opens ? Usually there is a wobble thingy device in that hole which is supposed to help wth collant flow during warm-up.

 

BTW, water has a better heat transfer coefficient than a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze. Pure (100%) antifreeze is even worse. I use a 20% antifreeze and 80% DI water mixture. Mine will not overheat here today. The high for today here in Montreal is 5 deg. C (42 deg. F). The autumn leaves are lovely !

[TR3BGeorge]

A TR3A owner in Europe asked me for help with his overheating. He would start the TR and drive about 20 minutes and the engine would overheat. He would stop by the side of the road for the next 20 to 30 minutes - by this time the engine had cooled down. So he would continue his trip and it would never overheat till he went through the same ritual the next day.

 

I suggested he had an air lock in the coolant system and he should start out on his next trip with the radiator cap off. He did this. When the engine warmed up to the correct normal temperature, he put the cap back on as I had suggested. He never had the problem again. Leaving the cap off for 20 minutes while the engine warmed up and the pump was pumping had allowed the air lock to circulate and to rise and leave the system. He topped up with extra water to replace what was missing and . . .

 

Now you know the rest of the story.

 

Give this a try George.

 

Also did you make sure that your thermostat has a hole in it to allow some coolant to circulate before it fully opens ? Usually there is a wobble thingy device in that hole which is supposed to help wth collant flow during warm-up.

 

BTW, water has a better heat transfer coefficient than a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze. Pure (100%) antifreeze is even worse. I use a 20% antifreeze and 80% DI water mixture. Mine will not overheat here today. The high for today here in Montreal is 5 deg. C (42 deg. F). The autumn leaves are lovely !

 

Thanks Don. I already switched to 20:80, based on your and others' recommendation. Also, a can of Water Wetter.

[littlejim]

This 'Water Wetter' has me intrigued. The safety sheet lists the following ingredients:

Propylene Glycol 1-60% CAS #57-55-6

DiIsopropyl Alcohol Ether 1-20% CAS #25265-71-8

TriIsoPropyl Alcohol Diether 1-20% CAS #24800-44-0

PolySiloxane Polymer

 

The major component seems to be glycol (antifreeze?) which it is( in its ads) apparently much better than.

Don't know enough chemistry to know if the two ethers are like the anaesthetic ether, which would boil off in about 5 seconds and whizz out the overflow.

Bit confused as to whether I should use it.

[stuart]

This 'Water Wetter' has me intrigued. The safety sheet lists the following ingredients:

Propylene Glycol 1-60% CAS #57-55-6

DiIsopropyl Alcohol Ether 1-20% CAS #25265-71-8

TriIsoPropyl Alcohol Diether 1-20% CAS #24800-44-0

PolySiloxane Polymer

 

The major component seems to be glycol (antifreeze?) which it is( in its ads) apparently much better than.

Don't know enough chemistry to know if the two ethers are like the anaesthetic ether, which would boil off in about 5 seconds and whizz out the overflow.

Bit confused as to whether I should use it.

 

John Deere tractors have this in their water systems from new and apparently it works by lowering the surface tension of the water or something like that. Anyway Im sure it would be cheaper to buy from them than a specialist supplier. Just sort of goes against normal thinking in as much as whats wetter than water

Stuart.

Stuart.

[RogerH]

Photographic film wetting agent also does the same thing and fairly cheap.

Hasn't the '4life' (I think) coolant got it in as well.

 

Roger

[Don Elliott]

I use Water Wetter in my 1958 TR3A only becuse I won a bottle as a door prize at a car show. They picked my lucky number - that's all.

I normally don't like to believe in "snake oil" or "magic elixers" but when it's free, what do I gain by leaving it on the shelf in my garage. My TR3A doesn't overheat - but, what the heck.

[ianc]

Forlife is a coolant which is used neat, straight from the container - it should NOT be mixed with anything else.

The late Michael Bingley always used Forlife and told me on numerous occasions how it kept the inside passages of his TR6s in "as new" condition - no signs of corrosion whatsoever.

I am intending to drain all my glycol-mix anti-freeze this winter, flush all the coolant passages and then dry them out as far as possible, replace all time-aged hoses, and then fill with Forlife.

Forlife is available from one of the MG car clubs - can't remember which, but should be obvious from the relevant website.

Ian Cornish

[RogerH]

Hi Ian,

I believe somebody posted a while ago that Toyota use it as well.

 

 

Roger

[TR3BGeorge]

This 'Water Wetter' has me intrigued. The safety sheet lists the following ingredients:

Propylene Glycol 1-60% CAS #57-55-6

DiIsopropyl Alcohol Ether 1-20% CAS #25265-71-8

TriIsoPropyl Alcohol Diether 1-20% CAS #24800-44-0

PolySiloxane Polymer

 

The major component seems to be glycol (antifreeze?) which it is( in its ads) apparently much better than.

Don't know enough chemistry to know if the two ethers are like the anaesthetic ether, which would boil off in about 5 seconds and whizz out the overflow.

Bit confused as to whether I should use it.

 

Jim, to the best of my knowledge, it shrinks the car's prostate. It makes it easier to whizz. Something to do with bonding to the walls. Don will be able to put it into more mechanical terms.

[littlejim]

The intriguing bit was that their site went to a lot of trouble to tell you what a poor job propylene glycol did for heat transfer, then to find that propylene glycol was the major component of their 'wetting agent'. I was expecting that you wouldn't see anything remotely resembling glycol in it, after the serve they had given it.

Would like to see someone who has some put a drop of their normal glycol coolant on a sheet of glass then add some 'water wetter' and see if the wetting angle does change.

 

I guess it is possible the other two components do the job, although couldn't find them listed as 'surfactants' in the brief search I did.

Edited October 28, 2009 by littlejim