TR4 Original Body Colour

[TR 2100]

I’ve noticed in quite a few close-up photos of restored TR4s that the

upper valance, behind the front grille, has been painted body colour.

I’ve also noticed that this seems to have been the case on the very early

press photos of the TR4 when the model was first announced. An obvious

example is the TR4 on the front cover of the Pigg’s Original TR4/4A/5/6

book and the photo of the powder blue TR4 facing page 8.

 

Based on my own experience (two TR4s, March & April 1962, both one

owner from new before me, both white, one certainly all original paintwork,

the other very probably) the upper valance was painted black – this serves

to emphasise the grille. It does make quite a difference to the frontal effect

of the grille, and therefore the ‘full frontal’ view car itself.

 

My questions are :

 

Do other owners paint the upper valance in body colour rather than black

out of choice or in ignorance?

or

Is it me who is being ignorant, with my cars not reflecting the standard

original colour on the upper valence?

 

Thoughts appreciated.

 

AlanR

[bob-menhennett]

Alan

 

I had my late TR4 painted body colour to replicate the original paintwork.

Throwing another spanner in the works, the grill had black paint on the vertical parts.The majority of the paint came off in the cleaning process

when I restored the grill ( a bit of panel beating and fresh rivets on some of the supports) .

Again I assume an original feature at the time.

 

Bob

[ianhoward]

Alan

 

I understand the TR5 front panel was painted black... and believe the earlier cars were body colour - though could be wrong!

 

Regards

[Rhodri]

My 62 TR4 was body colour and I am respraying it the same.

 

Rod

[stuart]

Front panel should be body colour on 4/4a and only painted black on 5s. However a lot of US cars have the underbonnet area (and indeed most of the time the boot areaas well) painted black for ease of colour changes so may have been left over from that.

Stuart.

[TR 2100]

My 62 TR4 was body colour and I am respraying it the same.

Rod

 

Rod,

How sure are you that your TR4 was originally body colour on the

upper valance?

How early is your 4? What was the original colour?

 

Front panel should be body colour on 4/4a and only painted black on 5s.

However a lot of US cars have the underbonnet area (and indeed most of the

time the boot areaas well) painted black for ease of colour changes so may

have been left over from that.

Stuart.

 

Stuart,

I'm sure you have first hand knowledge of more 4s than me but I've still not so sure

about "should be" body colour. My TR4s certainly were not.

 

The point of my post was to draw on the experiences of others, so thanks to you and

Rod for that.

I'm sure the black paint on the upper vanence of both my TR4s (both in the CT 7,500-

8,000 range, both UK market RHD) was original so I'm still wondering why.

 

AlanR

Edited October 8, 2008 by TR 2100

[Rhodri]

My car is in the CT17000 range, being a late 62 and exported to the USA. The car was taken off the road in 76, owing to minor damage and being worn out. The Heritage cert shows Signal Red as its colour and most of it was that colour when I got it, and I am certain that the red I had on the car was the original Triumph paint. It had seen an amateur blowover in green, leaving the boot and underbody area in red, albeit with a thin layer of grey primer in places. I attach two pics, one showing the valance from inside the engine bay, the other showing the original red when the headlight was removed. The green blowover shows there and on the door. There had been an attempt at some sort of black underseal around the decaying battery shelf and inside the boot, however this was not a proper paint, more like a soft underseal. Hope that helps.

 

Rod

[Trevor S]

Alan, I too like Rod have a CT 17000 series 1962 car from December. It was also a US car exported to ST in Los Angeles which has been repatriated. I bought it as a derelict none runner and had it restored. It had had a lime green overspray done on the cheap I would think as many of the fittings had not been removed when it was repainted. It was powder blue originally. On removinmg the headlight bowls and the rubber rings on which they are mounted the powder blue was still showing on the upper valance headlight pressings. My car was therefore definitely sporting a powder blue upper valance to match the rest of the body originally. The front inner wings and bulkhead had been oversprayed in black as Stuart suggests but again on removing fittings such as the windscreen wiper motor mount it was powder blue underneath. It's now all powder blue again. Possibly your car of an earlier vintage may have had a different set up but I doubt cash strapped Triumph would have gone to such trouble. I have not read of such a TR4 feature in any of the Triumph reference books. Cars were often "re-worked" to try and make them look like a later model if the then owner liked some feature of a newer model and this could be why your's sports the black valance possibly. Mine had 4a front overiders fitted upside down!!

Bottom line is if you really like the black valance look, have your car painted that way. It could easily be changed at a later date if necessary so you couldn't be accused of carryig out any irreversible modification (assuming that's what it is).

[RAHTR4]

Alan,

 

My TR4 in one of the last 1000 built and exported to the USA, by the time it returned to the UK it had been re-sprayed so many times it was not possible to determine what the original finish was on the front face of the upper valance.

 

However I have gone for black paint for the area behind the grille, simply because I think it looks good that way.

 

It would be interesting to learn if any TR4's were actually produced with this finish.

 

 

On another note relating to originality I have added stainless steel beads between the bottom of the front wings and the ends of the lower valance.

 

This is because I noted that these trims were fitted to the original Road Test car Reg - 9132 HP and also they are shown fitted to the car used to illustrate the TR4 Sales Brochure I have - referenced 338 / 864 / UK, which I take to have been printed in 1964.

 

I presume that they were not fitted during production because of a cost saving exercise?

 

As the cars did end up with the short wing beads fitted to same position at the rear, I think adding them to the front balances up the package and produces the original intent if cost problems had not prevailed.

 

Regards, Richard

[TR 2100]

Alan, I too like Rod have a CT 17000 series 1962 car from December. It was also a US car exported to ST in

Los Angeles which has been repatriated. I bought it as a derelict none runner and had it restored.

It had had a lime green overspray done on the cheap I would think as many of the fittings had not been removed

when it was repainted. It was powder blue originally. On removinmg the headlight bowls and the rubber rings on

which they are mounted the powder blue was still showing on the upper valance headlight pressings.

 

To clarify the paint finish on my own 4 (repeat, one owner, original paint) the upper valance was painted black

BUT over body colour - it would always be more practical to paint the shell first and add the black to the upper

valance after.

 

I have not read of such a TR4 feature in any of the Triumph reference books.

It would be interesting to learn if any TR4's were actually produced with this finish.

 

Nor have I - this was the point of the posting. Yet I have no doubt that my car was sporting all original paint.

Apart from my own general/visual observation, the first owner carried out all his own maintenance and kept a

neat handwritten notebook of the smallest of jobs. No mention of painting.

 

Maybe the black paint was a trial, maybe white cars only, maybe . . . . . it would be interesting to know.

 

Anyone else with knowledge of original TR4s?

 

AlanR

Edited October 9, 2008 by TR 2100

[stuart]

Alan,

 

My TR4 in one of the last 1000 built and exported to the USA, by the time it returned to the UK it had been re-sprayed so many times it was not possible to determine what the original finish was on the front face of the upper valance.

 

However I have gone for black paint for the area behind the grille, simply because I think it looks good that way.

 

It would be interesting to learn if any TR4's were actually produced with this finish.

 

 

On another note relating to originality I have added stainless steel beads between the bottom of the front wings and the ends of the lower valance.

 

This is because I noted that these trims were fitted to the original Road Test car Reg - 9132 HP and also they are shown fitted to the car used to illustrate the TR4 Sales Brochure I have - referenced 338 / 864 / UK, which I take to have been printed in 1964.

 

I presume that they were not fitted during production because of a cost saving exercise?

 

As the cars did end up with the short wing beads fitted to same position at the rear, I think adding them to the front balances up the package and produces the original intent if cost problems had not prevailed.

 

Regards, Richard

One of our local club members now sadly deceased had the stainless trims added to the lower front seam on his 4a when it was restored and it does compliment it well. Although having lived without them on so many other cars It always drew my eye every time I saw the car.

Stuart

Edited October 9, 2008 by stuart

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Alan,

 

I'm not sure about original TR4s, but I can tell you that some Ford and Rootes models of the era had black paint behind the grilles - but only on white or very pale colours, and not on mid or dark shades where the upper valance remained body colour. I've always assumed that this was because very light paint behind a grille quickly becomes dirty and shabby looking, whereas mid or dark shades don't suffer in the same way.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[TR 2100]

On another note relating to originality I have added stainless steel beads between the bottom of the front wings

and the ends of the lower valance.

 

This is because I noted that these trims were fitted to the original Road Test car Reg - 9132 HP and also they are

shown fitted to the car used to illustrate the TR4 Sales Brochure I have - referenced 338 / 864 / UK, which I take

to have been printed in 1964.

 

Richard,

 

It was photos of 9132 HP that prompted me to start thinking about the colour of paint on the upper valence.

My own experience is that the upper valence is black but I noticed 9132 HP was red body colour behind the grille.

Then I noticed the restored cars shown in the Pigg's book also had body colour behind the grille and I started to

think that that this was due to copying from 9132 HP, in the absence of authoritative information on the subject.

 

Maybe the Pigg and/or Jon Marshall will pick up this posting and make comment? If not, I'll email them.

 

We know that the beading at the bottom of the front wing was not carried into production. I didn't fit them to my

car but can see they would neatly finish off the join.

 

9132 HP was one of the first factory press cars, so it must be a 1961 car even if it appear in a 1964 brochure.

I have a large original factory B&W photo of 9132 HP - can't be sure of the colour but it looks a bit too light

for signal red.

 

 

Hi Alan,

I'm not sure about original TR4s, but I can tell you that some Ford and Rootes models of the era had

black paint behind the grilles - but only on white or very pale colours, and not on mid or dark shades

where the upper valance remained body colour. I've always assumed that this was because very light

paint behind a grille quickly becomes dirty and shabby looking, whereas mid or dark shades don't suffer

in the same way.

Cheers,

Alec

 

Thanks for that, Alec. So there is a period styling precedent.

 

AlanR

[Trevor S]

Alan, I have an original sales brochure code 2338/963/UK probably a later version of the one to which Richard refers showing a red TR4 with red upper valance. It is probably the same picture as in the earlier edition. I also have an earlier slightly smaller original 12 page brochure with print details " LITHO IN USA- 10.61-SX, N.Y." which I take to be a 1961 brochure. This features a red lhd TR4 with white wall tyres which has a red upper valance (and the lower stainless steel trims referred to by Richard). I also have a further 4 page fold out US brochure which is undated just showing code "LITHO IN U.S.A.- SX, N.Y." featuring a white lhd TR4 with white wall tyres, and the early TR3a style seats, which has a white upper valance ( and no stainless steel lower trim) It has the black crackle finish centre small dial section on the dash not the polished metal one so can't be a really early car.

My own 1962 TR4 had no black paint layer between the original powder blue and the oversprayed lime green.

It seems US dealers carried out some modificatiosn to cars themselves so you could get a particular dealer painting cars in a particular way as well as a posible limited factory run. I have not commonly heard of UK dealers doing the type of minor alterations that seemed to be more common in the US.

I assume you are aware as to whether or not your car ever suffered any frontal accident damage when the car could have been repainted, even early on in it's life when it could have been repainted in te contemporary fashion as mnetioned by Alec.

You obviously feel confident about the originality of your car so it would be interesting to hear further of your investigations.

[TR 2100]

I assume you are aware as to whether or not your car ever suffered any frontal accident damage

when the car could have been repainted, even early on in it's life when it could have been repainted

in te contemporary fashion as mnetioned by Alec.

You obviously feel confident about the originality of your car so it would be interesting to hear further

of your investigations.

 

Hi Trevor,

 

TR 2100 was bought new by a 64 year old guy who did all his own maintenance. He was ex-civil service,

I think, and kept a neat handwritten record of absolutely everything he did to the car. He removed and

cleaned the sump each oil change, rotated the tyres, etc etc, all recorded in neat handwriting in a little

notebook. No mention of any accident or respraying.

 

Even the registration TR 2100 was issued from new and is recorded on the Heritage certificate.

I bought the car in 1979 with about 80K on the clock, put new wings on as the bottoms had gone,

probably rusted due to washing rather than being out in the rain.

So yes, I'm confident of its originality.

 

My other TR4, two weeks younger, had one owner from about 6 months old. She owned it and loved it

(she hated MGs with a vengeance) until 1981. I feel pretty sure that this too is original, certainly the

upper and lower valences are original, and with black paint behind the grille when I stripped it down,

but I can't be quite as certain about the paintwork as I am with TR 2100. Still 95%+ certain though.

 

If light colours only were treated to black paint behind the grille, then I'm surprised that powder blue

was not treated the same way, but it seems not. Maybe it was white cars only that had this treatment.

 

Anyone else with experience of this?

 

AlanR