uk/usa

[boxer]

When does a uk car cease to be a uk car.If you have a uk car and you fit a californian shell can that still be sold as uk.If you have a usa car which still has the original us body shell and has been converted to 150bhp spec can that be sold as uk 150 spec.I .read a lot about cars being sold on the basis they are genuine uk cars is that misdescription if they have virtually been stripped of all there original panels and even chassis.I would be very interested in what others think on this topic after all they were all manufactured here unlike a lot of imports today which are manufactured abroad

Bob

[PILKIE]

This will open a can of worms no doubt!!

Continuous provenance,service history of a car is the only real way to tell!!

If a lhd to rhd re shell has happened and not been recorded it can still be possible to see the tell tale signs!!

Edited August 29, 2008 by PILKIE

[Richard Crawley]

It’s a bit like the 30 year old broom; 15 new handles & 10 new heads! It’s an emotional thing but there are strict DVLA rules & points scoring system that dictates when a rebuilt car can retain it’s original status but I believe using a new or even a different original shell (USA or otherwise) is not sufficient in itself for a car to lose it's original status, one or more of the other major components would have to be changes as well.

 

Personally I would avoid such a car unless it was very well executed & extreamly cheap!

[88V8]

If you replace one bit of metal, one wing with a replica wing, have you really changed anything?

If you replace the chassis and the shell, like for like, so long as you're not stupid enough to tell the DVLA, have you really changed anything? And does it matter??

After all, many cars must have had more than one major rebuild, and little of the original may remain other than a VIN plate and perhaps a paper trail.

Does it really matter? Well, it matters to some people, and if they want to pay more for cars which are or appear to be substantially original, well, fine.

 

To me, a UK car is one built to UK spec, RHD, and originally sold in the UK. What's happened to it since, to me is less important than its current spec and condition.

 

Now, if the car is special in terms of its history or ownership, that's another matter, worth preserving as much of the original as possible, not making changes or 'improvements' and carefully replicating those parts which are unavoidably renewed. Although strangely enough, the part of the car most intimately associated with past ownership, the bit the past owner sat in - the interior, the seats, the steering wheel - people seem to fling without a second thought

 

Ivor

[Alec Pringle]

There's nothing like the subject of 'originality' to reduce normally rational and intelligent individuals to garbage gargling anoraks.

 

There aren't that many 'original' classics still around from the 1970s, let alone the 60s or 50s. I'd suggest that most of the cars purporting to be 'original' are nothing of the sort - the owners are foolish, deluded, or simply b*llsh*tt*rs. Their cars may well be to the 'original' specification, but precious little remains from what was put together on the original assembly line to create that particular vehicle.

 

Does it matter ? Yes, in some respects I think it does. It certainly would if we were watching 'Antiques Roadshow' comparing an unrestored piece of furniture - warts, dings, wormholes, patina and all - with an immaculate piece of flawless restoration that doesn't look its age. They may both be admirable, not to say valuable, but they aren't the same thing.

 

There's something about a genuinely original old car - it might be hard to put into words, but you sure as heck know the difference when you sit in it. My '58 Super Snipe for example, or my wife's '58 Pennant - but not any of our numerous TRs, thay're all bitsas to a greater or lesser degree, as are perhaps 95% of TRs, or maybe 98%.

 

As for Boxer's original post - California shell, converted US car etc . . . whatever such restorations, rebuilds, recreations might be, they certainly aren't UK cars, let alone original. They're bitsas, no more and no less. Nothing wrong with that, just don't bull them up pretending they're something they aren't.

 

If you really want to give yourself bad dreams, links to the most relevant DVLA pages . . .

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Buyin...cle/DG_10014199

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Buyin...cle/DG_10014246

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

Edited August 30, 2008 by Alec Pringle

[TR 2100]

There's nothing like the subject of 'originality' to reduce normally rational and intelligent individuals to

garbage gargling anoraks.

Absolutely. And Alec is normally rational and intelligent!!

 

As for Boxer's original post - California shell, converted US car etc . . . whatever such restorations, rebuilds,

recreations might be, they certainly aren't UK cars, let alone original. They're bitsas, no more and no less.

Nothing wrong with that, just don't bull them up pretending they're something they aren't.

If your restoration project is in need of significant bodywork repairs, you can either buy new repro panels,

lets say inner/outer wings, floors and cills, front and rear panels and many small welded-in patches or you

could get a complete rust-free shell from the US.

 

Depending on which way you go, your car will end up with either a lot of new reproduction metalwork to

not –the-same-quality as original or 30-50 year old factory original made-in-the-UK shell, with only a few

welded-up holes in the bulkhead to distinguish it from the original shell. Which option would be

more of a ‘bitsa’?

And, if the repro panels were (say) made overseas, where labour is cheaper, but the original shell was made

in the UK, does that affect thinking as to whether a car is UK-made or not?

 

The 'bitsa' reference is subjective. What about rack and pinion, disc brakes and/or girling axle on a TR2/early

TR3, alternator on a TR2/3/4, using any s/h parts from another car, the list is endless. To me, these mods

make a car far more of a bitsa than replacing a bodyshell with a lhd shell.

 

Why should an original lhd shell have some sort of stigma attached to it? What about a rhd TR7 shell to restore

a rusty (UK) TR8 or Grinnall?

 

Would it not be more logical to accept a mixture of original and correct components from original cars as not

being a bitsa but think of some of the modified cars bitsas?

 

DVLA regulations exist for entirely different reasons and we should not be led by these when we think what is,

or is not, a bitsa.

 

AlanR

[boxer]

My original reason for posting the question about us or uk cars is because i see so many cars for sale quoting "genuine uk car" but surely they are all uk cars the only difference being what side of the car you sit in and the engine bhp figures so why all this c--p about genuine uk cars.As previous posts have shown they are all bitsas and its a good job all these body,s panels etc are available or most tr,s by now would be scrap

Bob

[Andy Moltu]

So long as it looks all right & is properly put together what does it matter?

Essentially they came out of the same factory - some had a long boat trip that ultimately boosted it's chance of a long life but other tha that......

 

It's not like pretendeng that a 4A with a 6 pot engine is a TR5 simply to make more money.

[Tony Millward]

Quite an interesting topic which is new to me being a new member. I intend to do many mods on myTR6 including 4 pot caliper brakes, rear suspension mods and yes, I am still pursuing the fitting of power steering... It will still look, sound and drive like a TR6 should and as far as I'm concerned, it will be a TR6...

[johnny250]

Quite an interesting topic which is new to me being a new member. I intend to do many mods on myTR6 including 4 pot caliper brakes, rear suspension mods and yes, I am still pursuing the fitting of power steering... It will still look, sound and drive like a TR6 should and as far as I'm concerned, it will be a TR6...

 

Tony,

before spending out on the 4pot caliper conversion you might want to read this ..... http://www.turbo-tr6.info/tr6_brake_install.htm

more does not always mean better

 

john

[BrianC]

So long as it looks all right & is properly put together what does it matter?

Probably not a lot to the few very experienced TR owners who know the differences.

 

However, these are not always as straightforward or obvious as a new owner or potential buyer might assume, especially with the later models (TR250, TR5, TR6) where the differnces in body panels and fuel systems seem to be a nightmare when trying to source parts (if the many queries and problems posted in the relevant fora are anything to go by).

 

Personally, as a reasonably experienced owner of TR3A and TR4A models since 1972, I would steer clear of a re-imported TR250, TR5, or TR6 unless I wanted a challenging project or the car had already been well-converted by a reputable specialist (or one of the aforementioned experienced marque experts). However, I'd be less concerned about any of the earlier models.