New TR4.....HELP!

[Richard V]

Hello

 

I am the proud owner of my first Triumph , a green 1962 TR4. I had decided on what "my car" would be last year at Malvern with a knowledgeable friend and via the forum (thanks to all those that offered advice). I was lucky to find the spec that I was looking for a few months ago in TR Action. I had planned a few years of fun motoring and to get to know the car mechanicaly whilst my two small children got a bit bigger, with a full restoration for the cars 50th birthday.

 

So much for the big plan... After a few long drives on the local winding country roads I noticed an alarming juddering in off camber corners at certain speeds. Up on axle stands with the wheels off and the problem was quite obvious. The main pivot pin for the lower aft wishbone on the right hand side was in the process of being torn out of the suspension turret.

 

Does anyone know if this is a common problem on the TR4 (the Roger Williams book doesn't mention it) and what may have caused it? Im also interested to get some accurate geometry information for this chassis, so I can check for any secondary effects of the damage. The moss catalogue has differant data to the Triumph workshop manual. Does anyone know which is correct?

 

Thanks for any help.

 

Richard.

[Ade-TR4]

Hi Richard,

 

Yikes! If it was mine I'd be

a- quite upset.

Then

b- phoning my nearest specialist for advice and repairs.

 

I'm quite happy to do most work myself, but this is a critical safety area so I'd get it done by people with the correct jigs etc for making sure the chassis is aligned.

 

Andy Lane ripped the lower wishbone off his TR4 on a rally and had it successfully repaired so it's perfectly possible to do.

 

Where are you based?

 

cheers

Adey

Edited July 14, 2008 by Ade-TR4

[TR 2100]

The main pivot pin for the lower aft wishbone on the right hand side was in the process of

being torn out of the suspension turret.

 

Certainly cause for concern and professional checking and repair, but there's

every chance that the damage is limited to that visible and no more.

 

AlanR

[Tom Fremont]

The main pivot pin for the lower aft wishbone on the right hand side was in the process of being torn out of the suspension turret.

 

Hi Richard,

 

This description suggests to me a failed fulcrum bracket - is that what you mean by " turret "? These regularly fail on later cars, and were reinforced with gussets to address the problem. If this is what you have, the brackets are available new, as are the gussets, and can be properly installed by frame specialists with little difficulty.

 

I figure the later cars' rubber bushes alleviated some of the shock on these brackets but they seem to fail anyway

[bob-menhennett]

Richard

 

Good advice so far.I hadn't spotted the differences Moss/ Triumph Workshop Manual until you pointed them out.

The expert who would know, would be Colin at CTM Engineering 01489 782054 , full contact details, etc on main Register website

under suppliers.Other members speak highly of him although I have not used him myself.

 

Bob

[stuart]

I have replaced this section on 2s and 3s and its basically the same on the 4s. It is available as a complete unit from CTM which includes the whole pin and the section of the engine mounting that goes from the chassis up to the turret. Its not over difficult to do with careful measurement but entails engine out and all the suspension stripped from that side.Its illustration number 15 in Moss parts book page122. The Moss chassis dimensions are for a 2/3/3a chassis.

Stuart.

Edited July 14, 2008 by stuart

[Richard V]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the feedback, The brackets which have half seperated from the upper face of the chassis member are located just below the aft fulcrum pin, the 1st has 2 holes in it to pick up on the end plate once the wishbone is installed and the 2nd one has a "D" profile and is also welded (or should be, in my case ) to the fulcrum pin. I will try to pick up new items in Malvern and an easy weld should be possible.

 

Tom, you talked about gussets. I imagine these would be triangular plates fitted at each end of my 2 existing brackets. If so a few hours with the angle grinder and some steel plate of the right thickness should produce brackets with built in end gussets. Otherwise do you know which of the suppliers provide these parts? Revington, Moss......etc.

 

Im also interested that you say rubber bushes help the problem. As my suspension is now in bits I will replace all worn parts including the rubbers and had anticipated changing to the blue Superpro polyurethane ones. I am hoping to put a sports car back on the road, not a car that has to be nursed round corners. Are these replacement bushes recommended?

 

The damage that causes me the most concern is where the fulcrum pin is welded to the back of the large vertical member that holds the spring and damper, the "turret" for want of a better word. It looks like the fulcrum pin has been forced inboard at some point, but it is not the U strap which holds it that failed, it is the rear face of the vertical member which has a nice big C shape crack in it, around the area where the U strap is welded to it. the crack is open by about 1 mm.

 

Im hoping that cleaning it all up, running the grinder down the crack to give it a V cross-section, then clamping the crack closed whilst I MIG weld it, will be the best job possible.

 

I am based in the North of France on the Swiss border, so I guess Im on my own with this one. There is no other damage or creasing of the chassis or bar that joins the 2 suspension turrets together. I was looking for geometry info specific to this early TR4 to give it a "peace of mind" check prior to the repair.

 

Any extra info greatfully accepted.

 

I will be the one looking under everyones front wheel arches at Malvern.

 

Managed some pictures.

 

Richard.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Richard V

[stuart]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the feedback, The brackets which have half seperated from the upper face of the chassis member are located just below the aft fulcrum pin, the 1st has 2 holes in it to pick up on the end plate once the wishbone is installed and the 2nd one has a "D" profile and is also welded (or should be, in my case ) to the fulcrum pin. I will try to pick up new items in Malvern and an easy weld should be possible.

 

Tom, you talked about gussets. I imagine these would be triangular plates fitted at each end of my 2 existing brackets. If so a few hours with the angle grinder and some steel plate of the right thickness should produce brackets with built in end gussets. Otherwise do you know which of the suppliers provide these parts? Revington, Moss......etc.

 

Im also interested that you say rubber bushes help the problem. As my suspension is now in bits I will replace all worn parts including the rubbers and had anticipated changing to the blue Superpro polyurethane ones. I am hoping to put a sports car back on the road, not a car that has to be nursed round corners. Are these replacement bushes recommended?

 

The damage that causes me the most concern is where the fulcrum pin is welded to the back of the large vertical member that holds the spring and damper, the "turret" for want of a better word. It looks like the fulcrum pin has been forced inboard at some point, but it is not the U strap which holds it that failed, it is the rear face of the vertical member which has a nice big C shape crack in it, around the area where the U strap is welded to it. the crack is open by about 1 mm.

 

Im hoping that cleaning it all up, running the grinder down the crack to give it a V cross-section, then clamping the crack closed whilst I MIG weld it, will be the best job possible.

 

I am based in the North of France on the Swiss border, so I guess Im on my own with this one. There is no other damage or creasing of the chassis or bar that joins the 2 suspension turrets together. I was looking for geometry info specific to this early TR4 to give it a "peace of mind" check prior to the repair.

 

Any extra info greatfully accepted.

 

I will be the one looking under everyones front wheel arches at Malvern.

 

Richard.

Richard its highly possible that the main pin has bent and its not easily straightened therefore I would go with the replacement section that I have illustrated and whilst the section is removed the main chassis leg can be properly repaired where the bracket has pulled out from.

Stuart.

Edited July 14, 2008 by stuart

[Richard V]

Richard its highly possible that the main pin has bent and its not easily straightened therefore I would go with the replacement section that I have illustrated and whilst the section is removed the main chassis leg can be properly repaired where the bracket has pulled out from.

Stuart.

 

Stuart,

 

Common sence is telling me that the repair bracket is the best option, but I am sure that it will trigger the start of the big restoration, that was not planned for a few years yet. Do you think that some extra steel plates to re-enforce the repaired vertical member would take me through to a restoration (when the kids are a bit bigger) where a full evaluation of the rest of the chassis will be possible. Do you think that the Superpro bushes will put undue stress on this weakened chassis?

 

I will take some measurements and compare to the workshop manual, before proceding.

 

Richard.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Richard V

[stuart]

Stuart,

 

Common sence is telling me that the repair bracket is the best option, but I am sure that it will trigger the start of the big restoration, that was not planned for a few years yet. Do you think that some extra steel plates to re-enforce the repaired vertical member would take me through to a restoration (when the kids are a bit bigger) where a full evaluation of the rest of the chassis will be possible. Do you think that the Superpro bushes will put undue stress on this weakened chassis?

 

I will take some measurements and compare to the workshop manual, before proceding.

 

Richard.

Richard I personally wouldnt recommend it as sudden parting company of that area can be disastrous. The actual replacement of the bracket doesnt take too long, its the engine removal and suspension strip and rebuild that will take the time. To rip that pin and bracket off the chassis takes a fair wallop and may have twisted the turret as well.

Stuart.

[Tom Fremont]

Richard,

 

While the A-arm appears to be the same the fulcrum brackets on TR4s are quite different from those on later cars - so please disregard my remarks concerning these. The standard bushes on yours are nylon ( I believe ) so I doubt your selection of poly will aggravate anything.

 

My condolences for the unexpected repair. Do I understand correctly that engine removal is necessary to effect this optimally?

[Richard V]

Yep, If I replace the fulcrum pin and bracket assy as Stuart suggests, the engine will come out.

 

I think I will organise to pick up a bracket at Malvern. Common sence prevails.

 

I had always vowed to do this project the right way. But it looks like the summer is over for the Triumph.

 

Bye for now.

 

Richard.

[RAHTR4]

Richard,

 

Sorry to read of your plight, a serious problem.

 

However I might have the part you require, I have a spare original Stanpart fulcrum backet assembly left over from the restoration of my TR4.

 

It is for the nearside on a right-hand drive car, i.e. the exact opposite to one in the photo from Stuart.

 

However I am not quite sure which side you actually require?

 

If it is the correct side send me a contact e-mail and I can forward some pictures, etc.

 

Also I will be at Malvern on the Saturday.

 

Regards, Richard

[BrianC]

I had always vowed to do this project the right way. But it looks like the summer is over for the Triumph.

Sad and frustrating as it is, at least it gives you a chance to check for other potential chassis problems.

 

Have a very good look at the rear spring hanger areas - and I mean with a hammer, chisel and prybar. I had one of these pull out on my first TR3A with disastrous consequences. Although everything looked OK and got through MOT tests for several years before failing, I subsequently ran into a previous owner (prior to the person I bought the car from) and he told me he had had the spring hangers welded up many years earlier. I suspect many TRs are still running around with similar repairs from their early lives and are just accidents waiting to happen.

[Rhodri]

I would suggest that, if you expect to pick up this part at Malvern, you phone CTM, or other supplier, to make sure that they bring it with them. I think that CTM sometimes make to order rather than off the shelf with some parts, so they will need time.