original speaker position?

[Dazzer]

Where was the original radio speaker located on TR4s? and where is the most popular location for current stereo speakers?

 

Many thanks

 

Darren

[Allan Westbury]

Where was the original radio speaker located on TR4s? and where is the most popular location for current stereo speakers?

 

Many thanks

 

Darren

Hi Darren,

No idea where the original speaker positions were but I have tried many different places for satisfactory sound ( without a lot of success ) in my 4A.

One of the problems appears to be the larger magnets on the back of modern speakers that foul bodywork in many of the most suitable positions. I currently have a pair of speakers mounted on the back trim panel. there is JUST enough room for the magnets to fit either side of the tank giving a resonably flush mounting for the speaker grilles on the trim panel.

I have also tried mounting speakers under the dash on hardboard panels cut to size and /or either side of the central console again on hardboard panels ( easy to cut to shape while experimenting ). Neither position has been much good as the sound is lost in the footwell & absorbed by the carpets.

I have not yet found a speaker thin enough to fit in the doors.

I have been tempted to try fitting a pair of small tweeters on top of the dash as many modern cars (like home cinema sound systems), have one or a pair of base speakers linked to a number of higher frequency speakers to give an overall surround sound.

Maplin used to offer suitable tweeters but they were out of stock last time I looked.

In conclusion- can't really help & would welcome others experiences!

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Darren,

 

And now for something completely different . . . this will possibly send purists through the roof, but I was fitting then state-of-the-art audio into TRs (and other cars) in the late 60s and early 70s, so some examples from way back when

 

Stereo seemed a waste of time in a TR, anything resembling stereo imagery being blown away by the exhaust note and general mechanical clangour. So we tended to prefer mono volume, although the odd stereo system emerged. This was mini-cassette and 8-track mainly, car record players (7", 45rpm) only worked in softly sprung Yank Tanks running on billiard tables. Just occasionally Uher or Nagra portable reel-to-reel decks were hooked in, but they cost as much or more than an old TR.

 

I had a batch of high quality Telefunken speakers, 8" elliptical, which lent themselves to a console between the seats - we made up a number of variations on this theme, using hardboard or even better 1/4" ply covered in vinyl and stuffed with wadding. The speaker faced upwards with polythene waterproofing and a plastic grille to protect. For one or two larger cars we made up similar units but with speakers facing to each seat, but too large for a TR. Another variation for big saloons was speakers in the centre armrest of the bench seat.

 

The really serious kit substituted for the 'child seat' in the rear of a TR. This we could make out of 3/8" blockboard for the improved sound quality, braced internally and stuffed with wadding again and vinyl covered to match the trim. Usually two separate units, which could be used singly or as a pair depending on how much volume and/or stowage space was required. Much easier to get in and out than one big lump. Drive units varied according to budget, the best were Tannoy 10" dual concentrics - by the standards of the day, mind-blowing, and perhaps impressive even today. Others had forward facing bass/mid range units and upward facing tweeters. Even then we used hefty screened cabling, and 1/4" jack plugs to connect, standard stage type professional kit.

 

Amplification was inefficient 40 years ago, a big audio system required an alternator rather than a dynamo, and sometimes we fitted a secondary battery in the boot - so you could party round the car. Amps were usually domestic hi-fi modified to run on 12v, anything from cheap transistor to serious size valve units - and, like the players, they had to be mounted in such a way as to reduce shock and vibration, a challenge in itself.

 

All of this cost serious money, outrageously expensive converted into today's terms - even a very modest system would have been a couple of weeks wages, a powerful system maybe two months salary. Demand was limited, but as there were very few suppliers our margins were pretty healthy. Then came the development of affordable (as opposed to Blaupunkt) in car audio, and this short-lived niche market disappeared.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Dazzer]

This all sounds very interesting, understated seems to be a very difficult way to go and achieve reasonable sound, whereas 'pimp my ride' style speakers appear to work extremely well, although it might upset the purists amongst us.

 

The 10 inch Tannoy dual concentrics might be worth a go if still available. I know that Tannoy based in Scotland still make PA speakers etc. I suppose they might mount behind the rear 'seat' back padding? which would hide them when in position, and if the seat back was velcro detachable at the top could be lowered down to experience full 'boombastic' when on the move.

 

My Tr4 came with Blaupunkt enclosed 100w 4 inch and a tweeter, enclosed in an aluminium, brick sized enclosure. Mounted in the footwells, only problem was that the throttle had been adjusted nearer the floor to clear and only half throttle was available, it was also problematic getting your foot squarely on the brake.

 

The other thing being, that the sound was deadened in the footwells, and even with the hard top on, and windows up, you tended to experience vibration in the legs rather than sound in the car!

 

If the Tannoys are available, I'll report back

 

Thanks for your help guys

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[RogerH]

Hi Darren,

along with Ollie mine are in the back board of the rear 'seat', I have a pair of JLB 100mm speakers. These have built in tweeters and run about 50watts apiece. The magnets just fit in between the tank and rear wheel arch. As Alec states a thicker baffle board would be an improvement but spac is a premium.

I have also fitted a similar pair in the foot well - left and right. These are mounted in very thick cardboard tubes (the stuff that holds carpet rolls intake in the shop) which in turn are bolted to the underside of the front bulkhead. The speakers then point rearwards thus giving some useful sound projection. However as Alec again states any stero effect is only obtained at rest in the garage - the exhaust gives better surround sound.

 

As a guide get the biggest most powerful spearkers that will fit/afford and at a minimum with builtin tweeters (probably 100mm at the back and 200 at the front) get a radio with lots of RMS Watts - 50 per channel is nice and try and get a radio with auto ambient noise adjustment - when the car noise increases the radio volume increases.

If you are running a dynamo it could be interesting at night in playing the 1812 just to see your headlights dim with each cannon shot.

 

The aeriel is important. Try and get one that is long enough to actually tune into the frequency range being received - for Capitol FM 95.8 you need about 10ft (one wave length)

otherwise get 5ft (half wave length). Forget the electronic aeriels they simply amplify your noisy 12v supply. What ever happened to the fibreglass whip aeriels of the 70's.

 

Fit a serious noise suppressor in the 12v supply to the radio.

 

 

Roger

[MikeF]

Hi Darren,

 

And now for something completely different . . . this will possibly send purists through the roof, but I was fitting then state-of-the-art audio into TRs (and other cars) in the late 60s and early 70s, so some examples from way back when

 

Stereo seemed a waste of time in a TR, anything resembling stereo imagery being blown away by the exhaust note and general mechanical clangour. So we tended to prefer mono volume, although the odd stereo system emerged. This was mini-cassette and 8-track mainly, car record players (7", 45rpm) only worked in softly sprung Yank Tanks running on billiard tables. Just occasionally Uher or Nagra portable reel-to-reel decks were hooked in, but they cost as much or more than an old TR.

 

I had a batch of high quality Telefunken speakers, 8" elliptical, which lent themselves to a console between the seats - we made up a number of variations on this theme, using hardboard or even better 1/4" ply covered in vinyl and stuffed with wadding. The speaker faced upwards with polythene waterproofing and a plastic grille to protect. For one or two larger cars we made up similar units but with speakers facing to each seat, but too large for a TR. Another variation for big saloons was speakers in the centre armrest of the bench seat.

 

The really serious kit substituted for the 'child seat' in the rear of a TR. This we could make out of 3/8" blockboard for the improved sound quality, braced internally and stuffed with wadding again and vinyl covered to match the trim. Usually two separate units, which could be used singly or as a pair depending on how much volume and/or stowage space was required. Much easier to get in and out than one big lump. Drive units varied according to budget, the best were Tannoy 10" dual concentrics - by the standards of the day, mind-blowing, and perhaps impressive even today. Others had forward facing bass/mid range units and upward facing tweeters. Even then we used hefty screened cabling, and 1/4" jack plugs to connect, standard stage type professional kit.

 

Amplification was inefficient 40 years ago, a big audio system required an alternator rather than a dynamo, and sometimes we fitted a secondary battery in the boot - so you could party round the car. Amps were usually domestic hi-fi modified to run on 12v, anything from cheap transistor to serious size valve units - and, like the players, they had to be mounted in such a way as to reduce shock and vibration, a challenge in itself.

 

All of this cost serious money, outrageously expensive converted into today's terms - even a very modest system would have been a couple of weeks wages, a powerful system maybe two months salary. Demand was limited, but as there were very few suppliers our margins were pretty healthy. Then came the development of affordable (as opposed to Blaupunkt) in car audio, and this short-lived niche market disappeared.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

Very interseting Alec and SNAP! But only as a side line from the day job to rich hi fi nutters. Never did it for open cars though. Tannoy dual concentrics were the bees knees and still are [if you get the right ones as as they cheapened the line after a change of company ownership.] There is a collectors market" in some models . Re-coned they are still top of the line kit. Unfortuantely I had to flog mine when I had a period of being seriously short of cash, so as people say when they see your TR. "Used to have a pair of of those , wished I never sold... , must be worth a few bob now.... and so on.

 

Mike

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Mike,

 

Yes, it was only a side line for me too, but a nice little earner !

 

My own Tannoys were in my minibus, powered by an old valve Rogers system - '64 CA Bedford, VX4/90 lump on twin Webers, o/d box and column change. That thing could pull a ton in a straight line. Eventually it was pinched and stripped; the friendly local bobbies tipped me the wink, and gave me the chance to sort out the thief - before they nicked him.

 

I used to have one of those . . . quite, when Tom was born I decided that Quad Electrostatics weren't safe with a crawler around, not at that voltage, so they went along with the Quad II/22s. Couldn't afford them now, that;s for sure, though I've still got the 401.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[MikeF]

Hi Mike,

 

Yes, it was only a side line for me too, but a nice little earner !

 

My own Tannoys were in my minibus, powered by an old valve Rogers system - '64 CA Bedford, VX4/90 lump on twin Webers, o/d box and column change. That thing could pull a ton in a straight line. Eventually it was pinched and stripped; the friendly local bobbies tipped me the wink, and gave me the chance to sort out the thief - before they nicked him.

 

I used to have one of those . . . quite, when Tom was born I decided that Quad Electrostatics weren't safe with a crawler around, not at that voltage, so they went along with the Quad II/22s. Couldn't afford them now, that;s for sure, though I've still got the 401.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

Nice kit, and revives memories .. the glow of KT66 output valeves etc and the weight..... though I have to say I think your "crawler" did you a favour on the electrostatics,

[he said also recalling heated and ultimately pointless but enjoyable arguments about the merits or otherwise of different speaker systems and even of mathematically proving how a large area speaker like the Quad could not generate a true stereo (actually binaural) image to a listener .]

 

Couldn't do it now, too many brain cells lost along with the hair.

 

Mike

[BrianC]

All this talk of Quad and home-built speaker systems brings back fond memories of the first time I experienced stereo hifi as opposed to my own Bush 'state-of-the-art' auto-change record player (which, until then, I had considered superb). Listening to Pink Floyd's "Atom Heart Mother" throgh headphones on my boss Greg's stereo system was a major ear-opener, but then he switched on the speaker system that he had just built and the house nearly collapsed.

 

I forget which speakers he used, but the enclosures were 3 foot lengths of concrete sewer pipe. Needless to say, I never reached these extremes, but learned that day to appreciate the value of good speakers driven well within their limits. I guess the cardboard tube speaker enclosures described elsewhere are a similar concept and affect the car's performance slightly less than Greg's system would.

[RogerH]

Hi Brian,

not sure about the 'affecting the cars performance slightly less'. With a decent 400W amp (alternator attached to auxillary engine in trailer behind) I think the cardboard tubed speakers could take out a variety of small flying things at about a meter that may otherwise be bothering your knees. Can you get skin burns from sound waves!!!!

 

Roger

[Smokey]

I just thought I'd show the original speaker enclosure that came with my TR4, assembled in January 1962. It's a pressboard enclosure that fits between the seats, with a Smiths speaker. Not great sound, but original.[attachment=3121:cockpit_rgt.JPG

[Dazzer]

Its good to see where the original was placed, many thanks for that.

 

Nice original looking TR4 as well, in the best colour... although I might be biased as my 64s the same.

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[TR 2100]

I just thought I'd show the original speaker enclosure that came with my TR4,

assembled in January 1962. It's a pressboard enclosure that fits between the seats,

with a Smiths speaker. Not great sound, but original.

 

Hi Smokey,

 

Thanks for the photo - are you SURE it's original?

I'm not disputing this as I have no other source of information (at the mo')

but you say "that came with my TR4" - that leaves it open - on what basis

do you believe this to be original?

 

Nice to see an early car with the plain metal gauge panel - do you have

a short bulge as well (if that's not being too personal), a boot stay rod,

no badge on the boot and chromed tonneau cappings?

 

AlanR

Edited July 8, 2008 by TR 2100

[Smokey]

The speaker enclosure has a Smiths speaker which seems period correct, and the enclosure itself is a perfect custom fit on the transmission tunnel, but I have no period photos proving that it is original. However, it was delivered in Paris,and since these are UK parts, one can reasonably infer that they came with the car from the UK originally.

 

And yes to all of your questions. I have been working on this car for almost three years, and trying for 100% originality. It has most of the listed factory options: starting crank, overdrive, factory anti-sway bar, tropical fan, etc. Plus the short hood, early calipers, trunk stay rod, chrome plated brass cockpit mouldings, early wiring harness, one-ring brake master cylinder, correct starter solenoid, etc. The chassis even has the small tabs above the rear wheels for the TR3 fender braces. I have suggested some corrections to the TRA Concours Guidelines for early TR4s (up to CT4698). There aren't many of these left, so not much attention has been paid, and there were a number of errors in it. (I suppose I now qualify as an "anorak" .)

[Alec Pringle]

There were plenty of proprietary add-on speaker consoles available in the 1960s, just glance through the adverts in the motor mags of those days.

 

More often than not radios were dealer rather than factory fitments, and came in all sorts of varieties. I can remember the options available from the Ford dealers for my father's Anglias and Cortinas in the early 60s, Quicks in Manchester used to offer better speakers in consoles trimmed to match the upholstery of the particular Ford car. They weren't cheap either, mother used to grumble about father indulging himself . . .

 

I guess anything of a dealer-fitted sort has to qualify as 'original' more-or-less - perhaps what's more to the point is whether that sort of accessory is 'in period' rather than from the succeeding model range, or even the next decade ?

 

Cheers,

 

Alec