wire wheels

[Menno van Rij]

Hello all,

 

On the 4/4A pages of the forum is an interesting ‘conversation’ going on about w/wheels and spinners. I do not want to contaminate the posting, therefore I will ask my question about w/wheels here.

 

The TRshop sent me a full set (5) of 60 spokes w/wheels. Standard size and I will fit 165/15 tires on the w/wheels. On several occasions I’ve read and heard that the standard bolts are 6 millimetre too long. I can cut them to size, or I can obtain 6 millimetre thick shims like Revington sells and put them on the axle/ hub.

 

What’s your opinion and what are your experiences? I really would like to know before I start cutting the bolts!

 

Regards,

 

Menno

Edited June 12, 2008 by Menno van Rij

[Dick]

Fit spacers.....I've had mine on for 20 years with no detrimental effects.

 

You then have the option of either going back to steel wheels or Minilites etc.

 

Also your spare can be steel and you can carry a set of 'steel' wheel nuts to use if you get a flat.

 

I made my spacers out of 6mm steel plate.....but as you say they are now available from suppliers.

 

I would suggest that you use a thread lock to retain the nuts though....Loctite or similar.

 

Regards Dick.

[Rhodri]

Menno, if you use the spacers then you will also be able to use steel wheels, as and when you wish. If you shorten the studs then you can only use wire wheels. I am sure that you know that the long studs prevent the splined part seating correctly on the hub. In my opinion a 6mm spacer would not put any dangerous loading onto the axle, compared with wider wheels etc.

 

 

Dick beat me to it!!

Edited June 12, 2008 by Rhodri

[IanR]

Menno,

Yes agree with both above, the 6mm spacers do the job and allow you to have a steel or minilite spare. I have them on my 5 and all is well. If however you are intending to run ONLY wires AND are worried about loading on the hubs/axles then cut the studs down .. after all if you have no intention of refitting steels or minilites then no problem.....

 

Cheers

[pfenlon]

Hello Menno,

 

I have wires on my TR3A andI bought them used from a member, in great condition. I bought new nuts which have a chamfer on each end of the nut, I tightened the using a hexagonal socket.

 

If you use an ordinary socket it slips and rounds off the nut.

 

Today I renewed the half shaft seals in the axle so had to take off the splines, I had to chisel off most of the nuts because not enough of the nut was available to get a socket on.

 

I cut down my wheel studs and did not go the spacer route. ST didnt fit them, but from other folk they have had no problems.

 

I have some standard wheel nuts now which I intend to fit tomorrow, and when tight cut the nut down a little to let the wheel fit properly, the original nuts are a larger diameter than the

 

ones supplied with 2 radius's and should be OK to remove easily. I hope it works! will let you know.

 

regards

 

Peter

Edited June 12, 2008 by pfenlon

[Alec Pringle]

Spacers don't result in problems ?

 

Pull the other leg, it's got bells on. Spacers aren't an engineering solution, they're a bodge, pure and simple.

 

There are occasions when you have no reasonable option, which is why I have them on the odd axle or three amongst the family fleet. But nevertheless they're a weak point - one which needs to be checked more regularly than normal service intervals, in terms of time and/or mileage.

 

From experience, I'd make sure that hub, wheel and spacer faces are true and corrosion-free, then spray all faces lightly with copper grease, and torque up 10-15% above recommended. And check regularly.

 

It's no fun when a 'chattering' spacer results in the wheel parting company - ask Ian and Celia, after the Peerless' debacle in last year's Le Mans Legends practice.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[rogeraero]

Spacers are fine ...don't believe all the theorists. Unless you are doing fast road or racing they work well.

Roger

[jean]

Must say, I haver never seen a TR in race configuration without spacers and have never seen a spacer coming apart. As with every part on a 40 year old car you will have to give a lot of attention to it. Wonder how many people regularly check the bolts/nuts of the suspension and use a torque wrench to tighten the wheel nuts

[Menno van Rij]

I haven't altered anything thusfar. Just considering all options. And as always: I'm very happy with your input. The wheels are still in their cardboard boxes. Safely stored until later.

 

Menno

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Roger, Jean,

 

of course spacers can work well, but that doesn't alter the fact that they are a bodge (compromise, if you're being polite), and a potential weak point that needs more than average care and attention.

 

Spacers were uncommon before the mid-1950s, and if you look at race reports of the late 50s and early 60s, touring and sports cars tended to lose wheels for a pastime . . . usually a spacer was part of the equation. For some years subsequently, they were prohibited in various competition formulae.

 

A hub may well be precision engineered, a wheel rarely is, and spacers also tended to be less than precision items. Net result being that the imprecisions of wheel and spacer tended to add up to a potential weakness, seemingly vibration could cause nuts to loosen and/or wheels to fracture. It could happen, and it regularly did happen.

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, an out-of-balance wheel, for example after the loss of a balancing weight, inevitably exacerbates the potential for problem.

 

OK, normal road driving is obviously a great deal less stressful than circuit competition, at least as far as hub/wheel assemblies are concerned. Although, given the steadily deteriorating road surfaces in many areas of the UK, I do begin to wonder . . . !!

 

If you're going to fit spacers, I'd suggest that you use purpose-made items from a reliable source like Revingtons, rather than multi-application versions, full of various holes and slots, from the local motor accessory shop. I'd also suggest that you take more than average care in torqueing up the wheel nuts, or the spinners, having first made sure that all mating surfaces are free of imperfections. Thereafter, regard the hub assemblies as regular maintenance check items.

 

That's not 'armchair theory' by the way - it's hard won experience. The problem that the Peerless suffered in the Le Mans Legends practice last year was all the more frustrating because I've seen similar problems repeatedly over the years - on the track and on the road. Which is one reason why, for example, spacers, studs and nuts should be regarded as strictly 'lifed' components in competition, and usually are.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

Edited June 22, 2008 by Alec Pringle

[jonlar]

As with every part on a 40 year old car you will have to give a lot of attention to it. Wonder how many people regularly check the bolts/nuts of the suspension and use a torque wrench to tighten the wheel nuts

 

Hi Jean, every time I have a wheel off our Euroboxes, I do a quick rattle round with ratchet (despite all nuts being Nylocs), refit wheel studs with air-gun set on absolute minimum, then run around each set of studs twice with torque wrench - when I think back to the 60s and 70s, when we'd carry a bit of pipe to extend the wheel wrench, makes me cringe - no wonder we had wheel nuts shear off and impossible to remove.

[jean]

Very right Jonlar, that's what I do on all my cars. Every time our modern cars return from maintenance it's the first thing I check. Unfortunately they always overtighten the nuts At a specific occasion the tyre centre had toqued the wheel nuts on my Freelander to 320NM, Now I do not allow them to tighten them again, but I take my own wrench along

[jonlar]

At a specific occasion the tyre centre had toqued the wheel nuts on my Freelander to 320NM, Now I do not allow them to tighten them again, but I take my own wrench along

 

A Peugeot Main Dealer did some work on my old 405 back in 2001 - because it had alloy wheels it had a security bolt on each front - I couldn't shift either of them, had to get a local tyre fitter to remove them - he tried it with his air gun on max. around 300 NM, broke the special security key and ended up having to chisel them off (at my risk!), replaced them with some Allfrauds' own brand.

[pfenlon]

Hello all,

 

On the 4/4A pages of the forum is an interesting ‘conversation’ going on about w/wheels and spinners. I do not want to contaminate the posting, therefore I will ask my question about w/wheels here.

 

The TRshop sent me a full set (5) of 60 spokes w/wheels. Standard size and I will fit 165/15 tires on the w/wheels. On several occasions I’ve read and heard that the standard bolts are 6 millimetre too long. I can cut them to size, or I can obtain 6 millimetre thick shims like Revington sells and put them on the axle/ hub.

 

What’s your opinion and what are your experiences? I really would like to know before I start cutting the bolts!

 

Regards,

 

Menno

 

Hello Menno.

 

Itried to fit the splines with a standard wheel nut and then modify the nuts so the wheel would fit, I found it impossible, so fitted a new set of nuts they supply with the splines.

 

I used a Hex socket with six sides instead of a standard one, which easily slips off, rounding the nuts.

 

regards

 

Peter

[BrianC]

Peter,

I was also contributing to the TR4/4A wire wheel thread but got no response to the following observation:

 

 

 

On the hub I was trying to investigate, one of these nuts was a slightly larger size across the flats than the other three. I can't remember which sockets fitted now but both were A/F rather than metric - probably 11/16" and 3/4", or 5/8" and 11/16".

 

I haven't looked at the other corners yet, but I am wondering what I'm likely to find when I do

 

 

I would be interested to know what size your nuts are (the new ones supplied with the splines of course ).

 

Also, does anyone know the size of the nuts originally fitted with the hub-extension? The TR4A workshop manual gives the size of wheel nuts and hub-extension studs (7/16" UNF), but I assume this does not necessarily define the across-flats (i.e. socket/spanner) size.

[pfenlon]

Peter,

I was also contributing to the TR4/4A wire wheel thread but got no response to the following observation:

 

 

 

On the hub I was trying to investigate, one of these nuts was a slightly larger size across the flats than the other three. I can't remember which sockets fitted now but both were A/F rather than metric - probably 11/16" and 3/4", or 5/8" and 11/16".

 

I haven't looked at the other corners yet, but I am wondering what I'm likely to find when I do

 

 

I would be interested to know what size your nuts are (the new ones supplied with the splines of course ).

 

Also, does anyone know the size of the nuts originally fitted with the hub-extension? The TR4A workshop manual gives the size of wheel nuts and hub-extension studs (7/16" UNF), but I assume this does not necessarily define the across-flats (i.e. socket/spanner) size.

 

Hello Brian

 

the nuts supplied are 11/16" AF. one thing I have noticed is the width of the nuts varies by as much as 1/16" and the slightly longer ones are better simply because more of your socket will go on the nut.

regards

 

Peter.

[vivdownunder]

Hi Brian,

 

I had my wheels off last weekend and checked the width of the spline nuts, after your 4/4A post, and mine are all identical.

 

Being about 13 years old though, my set may not be relevant to what's on offer now, given the recent volume of complaints about repro parts.

 

Being reversible nuts, when the chamfer is put on the opposite side, perhaps this is an imprecise manufacturing process, thus explaining the varying widths described by Peter. That's just a stab in the dark of course.

 

Regards,

 

Viv