Jack K Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Hi, my name's Jack, I'm 16 and live in NJ, USA. Been in the business of restoring a Morris Minor since 13, got a brand new project this birthday- Alfie, the TR3. Actually not looking like that now! Came (contrary to the photo) with an engine, gearbox, lots of other parts, but not quite everything to complete. I took the body off, and have the chassis on blocks with the rear wheels off- I had the intention of removing the brakes, but I ran into a sticky patch. Can anyone help? My car is #47somethinghundred, but I'm not sure which hub system that is. I removed the castellated nut, plain washer and am stuck; there's now the hub in the way, and it won't come off, so I can't get the drum off. I read that you need a special tool to remove the hub. Is this true? Incidentally, the shipper- since that photo was taken- smashed the front panel, splitting it at the top of the grille hole and denting it (as well as denting the wing behind). I hear it's really expensive, that panel- is it worth going after the shipper? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Welcome to the TR Register Forum and the TRials and TRibulations of owning a TR. You don't need to use the hub puller to work on the brakes. Once you have the drum off, you can check if your linings are still good. If they have 3/16" to 1/4" of lining left, leave them the way they are. In 178,000 miles on my 1958 TR3A (TS 27489 LO), I have changed the rear linings once. That's because most of the stopping power is done by the front brakes. I suggest you get all the books and manuals you can about TRs plus all the catalogs from all the major US suppliers. Use the web and find the sites for Roadster Factory, Moss, Victoria British and others. Also you want to get the book "How to Restore your TR" http://www.tr-register.co.uk/regalia.htm shows what books and manuals are available. Don Elliott, Original Owner (Bought my TR3A 50 years ago and still have it) http://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/pho...puser/3909/sl/d Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 You don't need to use the hub puller to work on the brakes. How do you get the drum off then? I removed the countersunk screws, and the thing just won't come. Incidentally it turns freely, so I don't think it's seized... Currently all I have is a Haynes. Know in the Morris world as the Haynes Book of Lies... Is it the same kind of thing for Triumphs? I've been a little underwhelmed by instructions like "unless the priming arm needs attention, there is no need to disassemble the lower half of the pump" being used as an excuse not to tell you how! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 To be more exact- mine is TS 47529 L... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 (edited) It's possible that the lining has worn the ID (inside diameter) of the cast iron drum and the lip it has left is preventing you from just pulling the drum straight off. Slack all the way back on the square adjusters on both rear brake slave cylinders so that this lip on the drum ID can get around the edge of the lining. You may have to tap on the outer diameter of the drum a bit - or a lot - to get the brake shoes to move towards the center before you can pull off the drums. A hefty crowbar might help as well but you don't want to crack a chunk off the drum nor do you want to distort the rear brake plate. When you get the drums off - and I know you will - you have to file, grind or sand this lip off the inside so it won't give you this problem next time. Or you may consider having the ID turned on a lathe by a brake shop. Edited March 15, 2008 by Don Elliott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Thank you! That's very useful. I'll have a go at them tomorrow morning! It sounds like I should be able to manage that... As you can tell from the photos it's a complete rebuild, and having never had a Triumph before I'll have plenty more questions... I'll probably be putting photos up every now and then! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Hi Jack, Welcome to the TR world. If the two countersunk screws are removed and the drum is still locked solid, it is probably held by rust build up around the centering boss in the middle of the hub, and behind the drum on the hub mating surface. What you can do is to squirt a small amount of WD40 into the circular crack where the drum meets the boss on the hub, and into each of the wheel stud openings. Leave it for a while then rotate the drum half a turn and do the same again. Next tap lightly around the outer front edge of the drum with a hammer using a cushioning block of wood. Then from behind the drum, tap it forward around the outer flange. Go easy or chunks will break off the flange. This should break the drum free. If not, the next step will be to apply some heat in the flat area of the drum between the wheel studs. Obviously be extra careful not ignite any residual WD40. It should be safe with the body off, but still be extra cautious. Don't ever be reluctant to ask anything, as we who have mucked around with these cars for a few years also had to start out the same way. Best regards, Viv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Jack welcome to the wonderfull world of TRing. As has been previously posted buy all the books you can find and get the parts manuals as well as they are especially useful when a car arrives in boxes to work out whats there and whats not! If there is anything you need to know feel free to ask. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Thank you for your tips! As it transpired this morning it was rust on the central wheel, rather than an ID lip. Bit of handy hammering and they came straight out! Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Jack - These cars were designed by humans. The parts were made by humans. They were assembled by humans and they can be taken apart by humans. If you're not a Klingon or other alien, then you should be able to do it. To see how I did mine from 1987 to 1990, click on the Montreal Triumph Club site. Since then I've driven "TRusty" 97,000 miles. http://www.rucompatible.com/triumphmtl/member_cars.htm#TR3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 If you're not a Klingon or other alien, then you should be able to do it. You've never met me... New question, incidentally! Regarding the AC fuel pump. The one on the car has the primer, but the arm is bent out of shape and the spring wire is completely out of position. The car came with a spare, however- seemingly a later iteration?.. It has no primer arm, and a much shallower sediment bowl. (Also says "made in Canada" rather than "made in Britain", as the older one did- but still an AC product.) Is it going to be compatible with the TR3? I'm very tempted to fit it... It seems in much better condition. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 You've never met me... New question, incidentally! Regarding the AC fuel pump. The one on the car has the primer, but the arm is bent out of shape and the spring wire is completely out of position. The car came with a spare, however- seemingly a later iteration?.. It has no primer arm, and a much shallower sediment bowl. (Also says "made in Canada" rather than "made in Britain", as the older one did- but still an AC product.) Is it going to be compatible with the TR3? I'm very tempted to fit it... It seems in much better condition. Jack if it works I would stick with the original and try and reshape the arm and refit the spring as some of the repros arent very good. Don may be able to enlighten you further on the pros and cons of the Canadian one but the priming lever is a great help in saving battery life if the car isnt used much as a few pumps brings the fuel up. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Jack - The original fuel pumps had the trigger to manually pump up the fuel. It's a great idea and very useful. The lever arm that is actuated by the camshaft was originally a one-piece brass or bronze casting. The later ones or repro lever arms are made of laminations of steel. If yours is bent and it's made of laminations of steel, it's a repro. If it got bent, it probably happened when someone installed it with the lever arm on the wrong side of the cam and when the cam turned, instead of levering the diaphragm to pump fuel, the cam crushed the lever arm. These can be flattened back to the correct curve and re-welded for strength to work like new. I don't know anything about an AC fuel pump marked "Made in Canada". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Take great care of the rear drums and shoes. Try to save and re-use because some of the shoes available are the wrong radius and some of the drums are worse. In fact try to save all original parts if possible. There are many experts on the forum and most of the menbers have dealt with tricky problems of some sort. When the car is finished it is a serious feeling of satisfaction as you flick into 3rd overdrive sweeping up a hill in the sunshine with everything purring. Good luck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Jack - I never through anything away until the car was finished and purring, as Richard wrote. In fact, I still have some items that I removed in 1987 when I took my TR3A apart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Good idea. I tend to keep stuff, so it won't be too much of a struggle... The shoes are well within acceptable wear, so I'm not doing anything with those, don't worry! I have an automatic fear of repro parts from the other car- they don't fit, and they're usually inferior quality, for the Morris Minor- panels need reshaping, chrome pits after a week, new brake cylinders are filled with swarf... Fun stuff. On the subject of brake hose- is it a false economy to keep the old one? Is there a decent way to test for cracks etc? I'll have a go at the original pump, then, if it's worth keeping going- my main problem is that I can't see how to remove the primer lever! It seems to be well connected to the hex fitting... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 I would change the hoses while you have it apart. You don't want the brakes to fail. Your life is worth more than that. I changed mine, whether they needed to be changed or not at 80,000 miles from new and again after another 95,000 miles. IThere are stories of the rubber cracking inside and swelling which will let the brakes actuate under pedal pressure, but the blocked rubber ID prevented the fluid pressure from returning. This caused the fronr rotor disc to stay jammed on. Naturally this was only one hose on one side so it kept pulling the steering to that side. Another story is that the hose on the front side flexed when turning the steering on full lock and this opened a leak on each turn. Driving straight down the road, it didn't leak. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 I suspected that would be the case... That there would be good reason to replace, I mean. I'm not immortal! Not worth risking it. Thank you. Anything else to replace on the brake system, every time it's redone? I've never rebuilt brakes.. I'm dismantling the pistons now, so that'll be interesting! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 If you drain all the old fluid out the brake lines and the clutch and if you blow the lines clear with compressed air and if you change all the rubber hoses and seals for all the master and slave cylinders, you can re-fill the system with silicone fluid. This will never cause the paint peel around the master cylinder, etc. like regular brake fluid and its luricating properties will keep everything from rusting or getting jammed in the system. Make sketches of everything you take apart. In my case I was putting my car back together about 2 or 3 years after I had taken it apart. Take lots of digital photos and save them on your computer too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Jack, with time on your side while you are doing the body etc, keep a close watch on Ebay for any original parts you need such as the AC fuel pump. Most of the repro's don't even have the prime lever. Also, many cars down here are now updated to electric fuel pumps, as they fill the carbies as soon as you turn the key, to save starter churn and battery life. Many are also fitted with alternators because the dynamo (generator) was marginal; electric fans for the hotter climates, and H4 Halogen bulb headlamp conversions to greatly improve night visibility. As always of course, it's what you want personally in terms of originality or practicality. When doing the brakes, always strip and clean the restrictor valve sitting vertically in the brass connector on the chassis near the right front wheel. Just be careful to record the sequence of the parts so it goes back together correctly, but if needed, Don has a good schematic drawing. I suggest resleeving both master cylinders no matter how good they look inside, as the tiniest score can result in brake failure, and it is not a split system. The only backup is the handbrake, which is a good reason to keep it adjusted correctly. To help remember what things are, and where they go, you can keep all small parts in clear plastic resealable sandwich bags, which are cheap and cheerful, and you can write the details on with a texta pen. Regards, Viv Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest colinTR2 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Jack, Welcome to TRs! Back to one of your original questions about the shipper and the bent apron/wing. It doesn't sound too bad from your description and you should certainly be aiming to keep the original panels. So, go for the shipper, and while he is thinking about it find a good panel beater and get a price from him, then you can advise the shipper what it is going to cost him. New panels are always a lousy fit on TRs and you will probably have to spend a similar sum as the repair getting the new ones to fit properly. I'm sure there will be TR owners in your part of NJ that know the good suppliers. Just to reinforce an earlier point, NEVER throw anything away, you never when you may wish to refer back to it, or even get it working again. Did you get the Moggie running. I have a 1969 2-door and use it regularly for work (only 12 miles away) Got a fresh MOT certificate for it on saturday. That lives in the garage with a 1955 TR2 in BRG. best of luck Colin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 drain all the old fluid out the brake lines None in there anyway... No oil in the engine, either, which saves my having to get rid of a whole load of redundant fluid. There was some pretty nasty stuff in the diff, though... To help remember what things are, and where they go, you can keep all small parts in clear plastic resealable sandwich bags Great idea! I have a whole load of the bags- I use them for storing parts, not during rebuilds but excess parts like screws and washers etc for the Morris. Never thought to use them when rebuilding things! One thing I'm certainly going for on ebay asap is a distributor... Be nice to have one- I have strange parts with this engine. No dizzy, but eight- Eight- carbs! Did you get the Moggie running. In a way... It runs and drives, but suffers from a couple of important problems; the whole car judders and then cuts out when you pull the clutch up, in addition to which the front engine plate is crying oil from where it meets the sump at the bottom- I think it's warped. Oh, and the repro grille panel doesn't fit (surprise surprise). Oh, and I think the timing's off because it takes about four to six attempts with no catch before it starts (first time only) But the engine itself runs beautifully! Anyway, this is a Triumph forum... Enough on the Moggy! I have a Morris forum for that.. Incidentally... There ain't no master cylinder on mine! The brake hose goes to all four wheels, meets in the little three-way behind the right front wheel... And then goes nowhere! I think I have a spare one somewhere, I'll dig it up... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jack K Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I'm currently dismantling the brake cylinder. Having a problem; I'm assuming it's not correct that the piston won't move in the cylinder?.. I removed the cylinder, and the piston is stuck firmly inside. I'm not going to try this til I get a recommendation from here (this is the brakes) but should I attempt to hammer it out? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Jack, Bearing in mind that you will be getting the master cylinder resleeved, just introduce some penetrating oil, diesel will do, then the safest way to try and force the piston out is with compressed air. You may have to tap it back inwards to break the grip...use a short length of timber dowel against the piston, then a hammer on the dowel. Cheers, Viv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bob-menhennett Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Jack Viv's suggestion will work but ...don't forget to put an old towel/ thick cloth over the end of the master cylinder.When the seal breaks.. "the bullet out of a gun concept" takes on real meaning and anything in the way..including body parts...is likely to get damaged !! Stay safe...Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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