Gearbox out ..now what..

[Jersey Royal]

Hi All,

 

I have been having problems with wering noise from the clutch when i engage gear, which have got worse returning from Malvern.

 

I have today removed the gear box and this is what i see

It is a Borg and Beck and the fingers in the centre are worn with groves in them.

 

 

 

And here is the Gearbox end release bearing

 

 

 

I am going to take the release bearing apart and clean up the bellhousing, take the clutch cover and plate out. I intend to replace all three parts, (not sorted supplier as yet) and new taper pin and put in secondary roll pin, new fork bushes, and new carrier From Revington.

 

This is the first time i have attempted this sort of thing, do the photos reflect the symptoms ? If you know what i mean.

 

Your advice greatfully received

 

Regards

 

Guy

Edited July 30, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[Richard Crawley]

Does the noise only happen when changing gear, i.e. dissapear once you let the clutch up or does it persist while your driving?

[Jersey Royal]

Does the noise only happen when changing gear, i.e. dissapear once you let the clutch up or does it persist while your driving?

 

Hi Richard,

 

Noise appears when i apply pressure to the clutch pedal, when i release pressure it lingers for a bit then stops. Cant really say i have heard it whilst on the move.

 

 

Here is the drive plate the lining material is less than the thickness of a twenty pence piece each side, and just above the rivets.

 

 

 

 

Guy

[Richard Crawley]

That’s good news for you; for a minute I was afraid it might be the box itself (dreaded layshaft). Both sounds & looks like the clutch unit is well past it’s sell by date so a new one should cure the problem. When doing all the other work, don’t forget to renew the cross shaft bushes & double them up on the lever side – the housing has enough room for 2 in there. If using B&B again, be aware there was some real **** ones around a few years ago & some still surface from time to time. New ones from one of the reputable TR specialist should be a modified design & are fine (I have one) but have a read through the archive on posts as I’ve posted on this problem before.

[Jersey Royal]

That’s good news for you; for a minute I was afraid it might be the box itself (dreaded layshaft). Both sounds & looks like the clutch unit is well past it’s sell by date so a new one should cure the problem. When doing all the other work, don’t forget to renew the cross shaft bushes & double them up on the lever side – the housing has enough room for 2 in there. If using B&B again, be aware there was some real **** ones around a few years ago & some still surface from time to time. New ones from one of the reputable TR specialist should be a modified design & are fine (I have one) but have a read through the archive on posts as I’ve posted on this problem before.

 

Thanks for your reply Richard.

 

Puts my mind at rest.

 

It would be so easy to just pop the car into a Garage anf let a professional mechanic do it. But that takes the fun out of owning a classic . I have read plenty of books, have a reasonable amount of spare time at present, and am guided by the help i receive from the forum.

 

Its great when you can say .. i did that..

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[rpurchon]

 

i had excatly the same problem with my clutch cover. the release bearing rhp was making a terrible din and i couldnt

stand it any longer.

try a 5 or 6 mm cap head bolt and lock nut & peen the end over,through clutch fork, they are high tensile and probably easier to get than a roll pin.

if you know a engineer or some on with a lathe have them make some

phospher bronze bushes 1" wide, instead of the original cross shaft bushes.

i have borg beck clutch and no problems.

but i cant say the same for the new release bearing rhp after 6000miles i can hear it wurring[is that a real word]

richard

[Jersey Royal]

i had excatly the same problem with my clutch cover. the release bearing rhp was making a terrible din and i couldnt

stand it any longer.

try a 5 or 6 mm cap head bolt and lock nut & peen the end over,through clutch fork, they are high tensile and probably easier to get than a roll pin.

if you know a engineer or some on with a lathe have them make some

phospher bronze bushes 1" wide, instead of the original cross shaft bushes.

i have borg beck clutch and no problems.

but i cant say the same for the new release bearing rhp after 6000miles i can hear it wurring[is that a real word]

richard

Thanks Richard,

 

There appears to be already inch long brassy bronzey bushes in place already. One thing i noticed on your picture was the pin ends on your fork are square and mine are round.

 

Who supplied your B and B

 

My existing bearing has rhp on the back of it and when it turns it sounds a bit gravely, and the carrier (bit that goes into the bearing) is also a bronze colour.

 

Cheers Guy

[paul gardner]

Guy,

On the Buckeye Triumphs (Central Ohio Triumph Auto Club) Technical Features web site,-definitely woth a scan- there is an extended technical appraisal of matters leading to a reliable clutch. It is worth the effort to find it because it examines the various release bearing options-RHP is not favoured - as well as other clutch info. Interestingly, The Roadster Factory web site is also worth a visit since it offers different mixes of clutches and release bearings. Its interesting to note that Sach and LUK (available here) as well as Borge and Beck clutches are favouered in the States. Best of hunting.

Yours

Paul

[TIMS]

Guy

 

PM me with your e-mail address and I will send you some interesting reading.

 

Glad you got home OK.

 

My gearbox is on the floor as well!!

 

Kind regards

 

Tim

[Guest ron]

Guy

Buy a Landcruiser release bearing, they are far stronger, self centering and less than £40 from your local motor factor. Your symptoms sound like a worn release bearing but as Richard says the rest looks well worn.

I also used a phosphor bronze release bearing carrier and double bearings on the cross shaft and the usual roll pin.

I originally had a B&B clutch but was lucky enough to get a Laycock one, they are better if you can manage to find one.

There has been a lot said over the years about various cures for the TR6 clutch [usually expensive], there is nothing wrong with the standard clutch in a standard car if a quality one is bought and properly fitted with a few improvements.

Ron

[ChrisR-4A]

Hi Guy, If you have not read the topic already then you should visit

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index....showtopic=10881

 

Your cluthch plate appears to have the 3 rivet fixing which is not adviseable, the propper ones have 6 fixings. Try Revingtons, they supplied the clutch for my 4A in 2002 and it has been ok so far after approx 20,000 miles.

 

Best of luck I have done a few clutches in my time and on a TR the biggest pain is removing and replacing all the trim and sealing the cover to the floor.

 

Chris

[67_gt6]

At the risk of going off at a tangent I too have a whirring noise, only when in neutral and clutch up. I always assumed this was the release bearing? Noise disappears when engaging clutch lightly. Can anyone confirm?

 

Andy

[wheeler]

Guy

 

This is the Buckeye Triumphs web site that Paul mentioned http://web.archive.org/web/20040403214313/...x_technical.htm loads of clutch stuff plus other tech info excellent site.

 

Good luck with the clutch repair

 

Bill

[Red 6]

I think you have missed a problem.

 

From your picture i noted the bellhousing is full of black crud.

 

Since you are removing the cross shaft can i recomend that you change the main oil seal in the gearbox (v cheap v simple to do) and also change the paper gasgate which you will find behind the plate with 2 bolts below the oil seal. (i can never remember what its called but they leak!).

 

You could also pop off the flywheel get it lightened (probably the best £60 you can spend on a TR) replace the spigot bush (essential) and check the rear main oil seal (which also leaks with age)

 

Since you aree down there it really is a good idea to do all of this and finally since the box is out if its got O/D remove the brass nut (A type) or rear plate (J Type) and thoruughly wash out the O/D oil filters.

 

And wash the crud off with Jizer until it gleams.

 

Oh yes if you have the money throw the cross shaft away and fit a hydraulic release mechanism. One of the best things i ever did.

[rpurchon]

my brother got me the clutch somewhere in brighouse w yorks £30 the lot. thats all they sell.

its a take the old one and they root around? this looks the same.[ i wonder if they have any laycock]

you can have the old one if you want it was about 10thou thinner than the new one

lots of rivets holding it toghether

 

the pins on the fork were already like that. the square bits are called slipper pads i think.

they run in a wider groove on the bearing carrier. sprints and 2000 are the same.its mentioned in the moss catalouge.

 

a long time ago you asked about black headlinings for a hardtop.

now i can put pictures on i can send you one of mine if you want.

its a white one that had been sprayed black. i couldnt tell untill i stripped it for painting

unless youve managed to get one richard

[Guest ron]

Best of luck I have done a few clutches in my time and on a TR the biggest pain is removing and replacing all the trim and sealing the cover to the floor.

 

Chris

 

 

 

I'll second that

 

Ron

[TRTOM2500]

Hi there,

You ideally need a Laycock clutch, I have had numerous problems in the past, and these have been fitted by professional people. I know of a source who can still get them. I have one in mine and it is the best it has ever been. Revington TR do an uprated bush for the cross shaft, buy two bushes each side for more support.

PM if you want further details on the Laycock clutch

 

Kind regards,

Tom

[Richard Crawley]

try a 5 or 6 mm cap head bolt and lock nut & peen the end over,through clutch fork, they are high tensile and probably easier to get than a roll pin.

 

That worries me; it's not good practice & could be worse than the original pin! I would be very wary of doing it that way even with an interference fit on the bolt! The slightest hint of any movement will cause severe wear in a very short space of time with the inevitable consequences. A taper pin was used on the original assembly to specifically avoid even the slightest radial movement of the yolk on the cross shaft; unfortunately they didn’t always get it right & sometimes the yolk is looser than it should be on the shaft & the taper pin doesn't exactly match the corresponding taper hole; this creates slight movement & eventual failure of the pin; that’s why it’s important to lap new pins to the hole & why using a roll pin (which has an interference fit) is preferred but as an also & not instead of.

[rpurchon]

That worries me; it's not good practice & could be worse than the original pin! I would be very wary of doing it that way even with an interference fit on the bolt! The slightest hint of any movement will cause severe wear in a very short space of time with the inevitable consequences. A taper pin was used on the original assembly to specifically avoid even the slightest radial movement of the yolk on the cross shaft; unfortunately they didn’t always get it right & sometimes the yolk is looser than it should be on the shaft & the taper pin doesn't exactly match the corresponding taper hole; this creates slight movement & eventual failure of the pin; that’s why it’s important to lap new pins to the hole & why using a roll pin (which has an interference fit) is preferred but as an also & not instead of.

 

RE CAP HEAD BOLT. AS WELL AS THE TAPERED PIN.

AND DRILLED THROUGH AFTER THE TAPERED PIN HAS BEEN TIGHTNED IN PLACE.

[Richard Crawley]

RE CAP HEAD BOLT. AS WELL AS THE TAPERED PIN.

AND DRILLED THROUGH AFTER THE TAPERED PIN HAS BEEN TIGHTNED IN PLACE.

 

Belt, braces & suspenders eh! Fine but you didn't mention it in the post & you can’t actually see it in the picture.

[Jersey Royal]

Wow,

 

Thanks EVERYONE,

For all your replys, i am not going to rush this exercise as i want to get it spot one. You have given me plenty of info and advise.

 

Red 6 i had spotted the leak in bellhousing the small plate is the layshaft cover i think.

 

So going to review the topic and decide what to fit.

 

I would not have the confidence to do this without the help from forum members

 

Cheers

 

Guy

 

Nb i will update this thread as it gets going.

[ChrisR-4A]

Richard,

 

With ref to the extra nut and bolt instead of a roll pin, If this is not a very tight fit in the hole with thread only on the exposed section, then it may come loose,and the tighter it is done up to start with the more chance of elongating the bolt and making it an even looser fit in the hole, but just clamped by the nut.

Having said that, it will remove some of the strain on the existing taper bolt and may well last the life of the clutch, but the next time it is all apart I suggest you invest in a new drill and reamer and fit a suitable roll pin.

 

Chris

Edited July 31, 2007 by potts4a

[rpurchon]

Richard,

 

With ref to the extra nut and bolt instead of a roll pin, If this is not a very tight fit in the hole with thread only on the exposed section, then it may come loose,and the tighter it is done up to start with the more chance of elongating the bolt and making it an even looser fit in the hole, but just clamped by the nut.

Having said that, it will remove some of the strain on the existing taper bolt and may well last the life of the clutch, but the next time it is all apart I suggest you invest in a new drill and reamer and fit a suitable roll pin.

 

Chris

well each to his own, i will stick with my high tensile bolt, and you can fit your brittle[just joking]roll pin.

so long as it stops that shity tapred pin from expiring premerturley.

either way it will keep you from seeing that part of your car you dont want to see.

richard

[Jersey Royal]

That worries me; it's not good practice & could be worse than the original pin! I would be very wary of doing it that way even with an interference fit on the bolt! The slightest hint of any movement will cause severe wear in a very short space of time with the inevitable consequences. A taper pin was used on the original assembly to specifically avoid even the slightest radial movement of the yolk on the cross shaft; unfortunately they didn’t always get it right & sometimes the yolk is looser than it should be on the shaft & the taper pin doesn't exactly match the corresponding taper hole; this creates slight movement & eventual failure of the pin; that’s why it’s important to lap new pins to the hole & why using a roll pin (which has an interference fit) is preferred but as an also & not instead of.

 

 

Richard

 

I understand that the taper pin needs to be a perfect fit and it sholud be test fitted into shaft.

 

But please could you explain the following "its important to lap new pins to the hole" what is lapping.?

 

Regards

 

Guy

Edited July 31, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[rpurchon]

lapping =put some valve grinding paste on the end of the tapred pin.shove the pin into the cross shaft hole and turn it back and forth so the pin is a good tight fit.

but first bolt your cross shaft and fork toghether with your new tapered pin.put the fork in a vice and see if there is any movement when you try to turn the cross shaft. if there is non it shouldnt need lapping.unless the bolt head is a long way out from the fork.if so lap the pin and it will go further in.

if you are going to fit a xtra pin or bolt .drill the hole after the pin is bolted up tight.

 

did you mean this richard or the other richard

richard