William Zimmermann Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 (edited) Hi Would like to share my special find TR4A irs delivered new in Germany in 66 1CTC with factory overdrive Special : - Neinman key system on steering Wheel colum - Glass stamped "Verre trempe Belgique " - Mixo Made in France horn - Plate light lucas L567 with special support The car stopped in 1980 for a head gasket failure All original ! If anyone has information on those CKD - Completely Knocked Down cars - will be interesting. What was really the purpose to send them in Belgium - tax ?overload plant ? Edited December 23, 2017 by William Zimmermann Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 Welcome to the forum, William. I take it you're in the US, and assuming Washington? One of the resources that might help you find out more about the myriad export specifications differences is the US-based "Triumphs" list maintained old-skool by Mark Badakis and available for listserv signup at http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/triumphs. One of the correspondents there is John Maccartney, ex-Standard Triumph sales, export department. His memory is pretty good and he'll know some of the details about your car. Sign up for the Triumphs list, post your question, and he's sure to weigh in before long. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted December 24, 2017 Report Share Posted December 24, 2017 Welcome William. Good to see another one has surfaced as there were not that many Melignes assembled 4's. My 1967 registered (assembled 1966) is "1CTC 68252LO". I have not been able to get any information that could form the basis of a Heritage certificate, but the mission is ongoing.. I will also try the link provided by Don. A nice feature about them is the metric instrumentation Cheers, enjoy Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
William Zimmermann Posted December 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2017 Alf mine is 1CTC 68357LO...so very close !!! will check the instrument but Speedometer for sure is in Miles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted December 24, 2017 Report Share Posted December 24, 2017 Fair warning... Although the "Triumphs" list has its value, including reaching a number of TR people in the US and Canada, it's nowhere near as informative or as functional as this forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted December 24, 2017 Report Share Posted December 24, 2017 Interesting how the world turns William, that is close. Mine was purchased in Brussels by a Diplomat who returned after a couple of years service. Got your point Don, but I have already exhausted our good friends on this forum to boredom seeking info, so now wait cues from others - I hope William can make headway Quote Link to post Share on other sites
William Zimmermann Posted December 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2017 Alf, mine has been sold new in Stuttgart, to US air force who returned in 68 in WA I have heard that CKD were mostly dedicated to European delivery but free of tax for US expat. people Both cars here are supported this assumption... It is funny Do you aslo hace the Neiman key, special glass, horn ? I will post pictures later Happy Christmas ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graeme Posted December 24, 2017 Report Share Posted December 24, 2017 Hi William, When I lived in the UK, I bought a 1963 TR4 which had been imported from USA. It turned out to be a basket case, however, researching its history, it had been a CKD car supplied to a US Medical Officer in Germany who had it shipped to Hawaii then to California before returning to the UK. It was fitted with a steering column lock, MPH speedo, it had odd horns but I don't recall the make. I also noted metric fasteners in some places like the bumper irons. Cheers Graeme Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 26, 2017 Report Share Posted December 26, 2017 (edited) Nice find!Somehow, in the back of my mind, theres something about steering locks becoming mandatory on German cars (or imported into G) around that time. I remember my dad's 66 or 67 VW Beetle with a steering lock. A novalty then Edited January 10, 2018 by Menno van Rij 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc R Posted December 26, 2017 Report Share Posted December 26, 2017 (edited) Hi William, With a "1" before the prefix CTC, it is maybe a TR4 A IRS, CKD assembly in Belgium (factory Malines in French/Mechelen in Duch) for the European market in order to optimize/minimize the taxes for car assembled in continental Europe vs the car manufactured in UK. At least it was the case for TR5 and 6 but I do not know for the TR4.(Ref. number cars identified in France and Belgium) As per my information (local contacts in the '80/'90) and enquiries w/ British Heritage for my TR6 PI CP manufactured on this factory with the Pre-prefix 1 and su-sufix P" specific for the TR6 from Malines (In my case comm. 1CP53xxxLP): - Info from BH: Archives from Malines/Mechelen are not available and British Heritage may only provide info related to the CKD parts prepared in UK and delivered to the Triumph factory in Belgium, not the configuration out of the factory delivered to the dealer and 1 owner. - On top of, from this factory (Ref. local source ex-worker in Malines): - It was possible to obtain specifics options like a different color (vs the defined ones for the specific model and year)if this color was part of the set of color available for Triumph (Other Triump were build ckd in Malines Herald 1200, TR3A.... 2000, maybe 2,5's, TR's, Spitfire, 1300). FYI and references : http://www.standardmotorclub.org.uk/page509.html - the TR6 CP (at least the ones before '72 and mine), the color of the windscreen frame was body color as for the TR5 and not Black as for the other TR6. Hope and which it may help you to future more investigate for your TR4 A IRS. Regards Edited December 26, 2017 by Marc R Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris59 Posted December 26, 2017 Report Share Posted December 26, 2017 (edited) So many things can be "special" on a Triumph assembled in Malines : body colours, different accessoiries, paint/ulphostery combos, etc, could be taken from all the others models assembled in Maline, including, I have been told, from non Triumph cars..... My own TR4A IRS is one of the very few who were painted in a sort of Bordeaux Red, a colour who wasn't in this model chart. Edited December 26, 2017 by Chris59 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc R Posted December 27, 2017 Report Share Posted December 27, 2017 Another example, my TR6 PI CP '71 CKD Malines : - was painted on Valecia Blue (definitively not a TR6 model color but a TR5 model color)including the windscreen frame. The rear valence and sill panels were in Black. - The side mirror was the one w/ the TR5 badge design (or TR250 upside down) - The steel road wheel on the boot was the one for the TR5 and 1st & early TR6 with the specific pins to clip the rostyle wheel trim, when the 4 others are the std one for the non early TR6, with the wheel equipped w/ the Black hub cap and red TR6 badge. Regards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris59 Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Another example, my TR6 PI CP '71 CKD Malines : - The steel road wheel on the boot was the one for the TR5 and 1st & early TR6 with the specific pins to clip the rostyle wheel trim, when the 4 others are the std one for the non early TR6, with the wheel equipped w/ the Black hub cap and red TR6 badge. Regards. I seriously doubt that your TR6 left the factory with a different spare Wheel, Marc. Are you the first owner ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc R Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 I seriously doubt that your TR6 left the factory with a different spare Wheel, Marc. Are you the first owner ? Good remark... No, it can be a replacement from a TR5 or early TR6 with rostyle wheel trim, but when I acquired this TR6 in '86, the 4 tires where the same type Michelin and from the same manufacturing date '71 and made the (wrong) connection. Toujours aussi perspicace JC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
William Zimmermann Posted January 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Here attachments of special feature... original Neimann key original Glass original horn is that something special this is a front bar at the top end of the chassis ...?? Edited January 4, 2018 by William Zimmermann Quote Link to post Share on other sites
William Zimmermann Posted January 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 just for fun- the cylinder 4 after removing the head !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Interesting and very over the top towing eyes, I suspect not original and may have been added at the time of shipping.to the US Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boxofbits Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Here attachments of special feature... original Neimann key 2017-11-23 002.JPG original Glass 2017-11-25 004.JPG original horn 2017-11-25 006.JPG is that something special this is a front bar at the top end of the chassis ...?? 2017-11-28 004.JPG 2017-11-28 005.JPG Hi William Interesting vehicle, and it seems the assembly plant in Malines had more freedom of choice with colours than the Coventry factory. I wonder if some parts might have been missing from the CKD on some occasions, hence the Mixo horn which was probably obtained locally ? Is there any dating feature on the glass, as I know glass made by Indestructo and Triplex can be dated by certain dots or features around the brand name. Interestingly, the instructions on the Neiman key are spelt in English but not necessarily well composed, so were these part of the CKD or sourced locally, and why in English? There must have been some legislation relating to the number plate lamps, as the home market as you know are placed in the overiders. Was it to be a certain distance from the number plate I wonder? Regards Kevin Edited January 5, 2018 by boxofbits Quote Link to post Share on other sites
William Zimmermann Posted January 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Interestingly, the instructions on the Neiman key are spelt in English but not necessarily well composed : Also something funny is that on the reverse side- there is the same instruction but in perfect French The original place for the key has been very well closed by a rubber I'm sure I will find other special things on this car. It is always so exiting to find one owner car unrestored that has been stopped by a mechanical issue and store in proper condition awaiting a resurection Right now I'm also buying a one owner Tr3A unrestored but this one is not a CKD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boxofbits Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Yes nice find William and hope the TR3A is also of interest, and the older these cars get, so their history file increases exponentially. Neiman locks were of course fitted to many export vehicles from the UK. I am currently restoring a Morris Minor van, and the parts manual for that and my Mk1 Mini show steering locks for continental destinations. The first one I personally came across in Britain was on a 1971 Lime Green Morris Minor Traveller when carrying out a pre delivery check at a BL Dealer I worked for. Regards Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
William Zimmermann Posted January 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) this is an attachment of the reverse side of the key , with the French instruction Never seen before a double language key... I also forget to mention the "Talbot Berlin " bullet side Mirror another nice enhancement Edited January 7, 2018 by William Zimmermann Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 Hi William Interesting vehicle, and it seems the assembly plant in Malines had more freedom of choice with colours than the Coventry factory. I wonder if some parts might have been missing from the CKD on some occasions, hence the Mixo horn which was probably obtained locally ? Is there any dating feature on the glass, as I know glass made by Indestructo and Triplex can be dated by certain dots or features around the brand name. Interestingly, the instructions on the Neiman key are spelt in English but not necessarily well composed, so were these part of the CKD or sourced locally, and why in English? There must have been some legislation relating to the number plate lamps, as the home market as you know are placed in the overiders. Was it to be a certain distance from the number plate I wonder? Regards Kevin The number pate lamps in that position was I think determined by German and Swedish market rules at the time as they considered the originals didnt illuminate the plate enough. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Hi William, No, my Malines 4A does not have the Neinman key. Menno probably has it right suggesting it only being required for German market. I would have to check the glass, though I did replace the windshield glass 2 years ago. The colour is Carmine (or Damson, or Burgundy??) and judging by the colour on the windshield frame it has not had a colour change. I don't believe that Carmine was a factory colour for the 66 TR4A. Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) The brackets on the front end could be a reminiscence of a time when the car was towed by an RV. I have seen something similar on a later model, rubber bumper MGB that was imported into Holland from the USA. US members here know what I mean. Edited January 10, 2018 by Menno van Rij 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RandallD Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 I think Menno is correct on the towing addition, very likely a US addition for someone who wanted to add a temporary tow bar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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