The Unleaded saga

[Mike C]

Mike C - as another Aussie TR PI owner (Adelaide) did you source the Gates Barricade hose here in Australia, and if so where from? Thanks., Colin W

Repco sell it now . Before it became available I used SAE J30 R9 or R12 sourced from the UK. Make sure you buy the HP Barricade for the HP lines and you will need to watch the bends, the minimum bend radius without kinking of the HP line is larger than the SAE piping .

[Colin White]

Thanks Mike

[Rem18]

So Barricade needs very wide curves?

How critical is it?

I can imagine that where the pipe goes under the tank to the prv that could be quite critical?

[Rem18]

Would someone like to put the specs together regarding pipe work uprating so that readers can have a reference.

 

Would also be good to get info regards 'greening' MU's and also if shuttles need uprating?

 

I have seen no reference to pedestal seals in green form and wonder what the risk is of these failing with modern fuel and the then consequences??

Edited August 15, 2017 by Rem18

[k_raven_smith]

The shuttles don't need changing just the rubber components that are in contact with petrol

Edited August 15, 2017 by k_raven_smith

[Waldi]

Hi Rem,

My car has a Bosch 996 pump.

I was planning to order the rubber hoses from Revington, but based on the warning for smell with those on their site which has a lot of good information , I am considering Gates Barrier hoses now, which according to Gates have low (er?) emissions than many competitors.

Waldi

[Rem18]

The shuttles don't need changing just the rubber components that are in contact with petrol

I am inclined to agree and certainly think it's worth sucking and seeing on that one.

I think the pedestal seals might need replacing with unleaded seals though

[Rem18]

Hi Rem,

My car has a Bosch 996 pump.

I was planning to order the rubber hoses from Revington, but based on the warning for smell with those on their site which has a lot of good information , I am considering Gates Barrier hoses now, which according to Gates have low (er?) emissions than many competitors.

Waldi

Yes understood Waldi

I think in order to avoid smell you need lined pipe.

That's why I said to NFC that even new TR's were smelly. Because the rubber pipe work as Neil Revington says allows permutation.

I do wonder if anyone ever considered bending copper pipe work and creating completely solid pipelines.

It probably has something to do with vibration and maybe frothing? But wouldn't shock proof mounting of solid pipe work be an option?

Edited August 15, 2017 by Rem18

[stuart]

UK supplier of Gates hoses has this type http://www.parkerhydraulics.co.uk/hydraulics/gates-hydraulic-hose/gates-lock-on-plus-hose/

Stuart.

[Mike C]

Yes understood Waldi

I think in order to avoid smell you need lined pipe.

That's why I said to NFC that even new TR's were smelly. Because the rubber pipe work as Neil Revington says allows permutation.

I do wonder if anyone ever considered bending copper pipe work and creating completely solid pipelines.

It probably has something to do with vibration and maybe frothing? But wouldn't shock proof mounting of solid pipe work be an option?

Copper fuel lines may not be solution "With long storage periods, especially in the presence of hot weather or engine heat the petrol can oxidize to form peroxides. These compounds can attack rubber and metal, stripping away the liner on fuel lines or copper from fuel pumps and attacking rubber hoses" extracted from:

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj7hqCN7NjVAhVDy7wKHejJAjkQFgg2MAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bp.com%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fbp-country%2Fen_au%2Fmedia%2Ffuel-news%2Fpetrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFVvoj83ZEXczvhCRpergx9jXD99A

 

I used copper fuel lines in the 1960's and 70's with the fuels available then but I would have my reservations with modern high octane petrol, which seems to have a very short storage life according to BP in this article.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Mike C

[Rem18]

Copper fuel lines may not be solution "With long storage periods, especially in the presence of hot weather or engine heat the petrol can oxidize to form peroxides. These compounds can attack rubber and metal, stripping away the liner on fuel lines or copper from fuel pumps and attacking rubber hoses" extracted from:

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj7hqCN7NjVAhVDy7wKHejJAjkQFgg2MAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bp.com%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fbp-country%2Fen_au%2Fmedia%2Ffuel-news%2Fpetrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFVvoj83ZEXczvhCRpergx9jXD99A

 

I used copper fuel lines in the 1960's and 70's with the fuels available then but I would have my reservations with modern high octane petrol, which seems to have a very short storage life according to BP in this article.

Thanks for that Mike. One of my problems is running often in hot weather and high altitude scenarios.

But according to your comments how would you see the fact that most of the pipework is copper and often runs in hot areas anyway...?

Edited August 15, 2017 by Rem18

[Mike C]

All of my metallic pipework is plated steel.

 

I believe the problem is with modern 98 octane petrol. I have other cars and a boat that use 92 and 95 octane fuels and I don't have any problem with the fuel lines . I never had a problem with high octane leaded fuel when it was available.

Until about 5 years ago the only problem any stale fuel gave me was hard starting, and this is still the only problem I have with engines that use 92/95 octane.

 

The composition of high octane and hence the composition of materials to work with it seem to be constantly changing. With the TR6 I am resigned to checking thoroughly the rubber fuel line components each winter and replacing them if required. MU components are a problem as items like fuel diaphragms are difficult to inspect and are hard to get down here.

 

This winter I've drained the tank to about 1/4 full and added Stabil to the fuel hoping that it will make a difference to the fuel in the system. I'll add fresh fuel when I want to use the car again.

[Rem18]

I admit to not using V Power all the time. Its not always available here so I have run on standard lots.

 

After this winter I found bad rubber, and a failed MU diaphragm, but I suspect it was more due to having drained the system over winter 2 years ago.

I have replaced the piping with the Pirelli HP and standard fule line stock I have and will see over next year I guess.

 

My Bosch is in the boot and with a CAV for more than 20 years and even if I read it shouldnt be hey it works and I have organised and driven a 50 alpine passes in 5 days (2500kms of highest mountains in Europe) rally 3 times and survived.

Maybe its noisy and yes it does cut out if I hard drive Lh corners on a low tank. But it works.

I think it maybe soon be time to replace the tank ,I swished it 15 years ago and that trapped a lot of nasty stuff but I am sure its probably getting dodgy.

I carry spare hose and check the piping as its all in the boot virtually each time I get the car out.

You cant check the MU, but you will soon know if something is wrong, I carry a spare anyway which has just gone in as the replacement. I have already stripped the blown one, found the torn diaphragm and will be re sealing it with green seals, but not the shuttle.

But I still wonder if anyone has thought about green pedestal seals?

 

I think after all this on the post a warning is due to all Tr's regards getting all fuel lines inspected now. especially if smell goes up.

T

[Rem18]

I think this article is quite good.

It's not new but it does give hose specs.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/8/viewthread.php?tid=153126

Simply put at the end....

If you go into your garage and there is a stink of petrol, but you can't find a leak, then it is very likely that vapour is permeating through the fuel hose. If this is the case then it is a fair bet that the hose will fail sometime in the near future... maybe not immediately, but sometime.

[Mike C]

I had the pedestal seals replaced with material suited for unleaded about 10 years ago and I've not had a problem since.

 

Your note on draining the tank reminded me- I installed a ss/teflon ball valve in the suction line between the tank supply and the priming pump. This allows the fuel to be shut off quickly and discretely if an emergency arises. I'm thinking of installing a second ball valve in the return line from the PRV to the tank as with my tank there is still a slow back syphon if a fuel line is open (as is possible with a leak) or the filter removed with the ball valve shut. At the moment I stop this slow leak for fuel filter replacement with a pipe clamp- I don't want the inside of the boot looking like an oil refinery.

 

I also leave the drain plugs out of the boot as I don't want any leak to build up to a pool of fuel.

[Rem18]

I had the pedestal seals replaced with material suited for unleaded about 10 years ago and I've not had a problem since.

 

Your note on draining the tank reminded me- I installed a ss/teflon ball valve in the suction line between the tank supply and the priming pump. This allows the fuel to be shut off quickly and discretely if an emergency arises. I'm thinking of installing a second ball valve in the return line from the PRV to the tank as with my tank there is still a slow back syphon if a fuel line is open (as is possible with a leak) or the filter removed with the ball valve shut. At the moment I stop this slow leak for fuel filter replacement with a pipe clamp- I don't want the inside of the boot looking like an oil refinery.

 

I also leave the drain plugs out of the boot as I don't want any leak to build up to a pool of fuel.

Mike

Yes but we are now talking about today's fuel.

Do we know if 10 year old seals are still suitable?

 

I installed a s/s ball between CAV and Bosch.

However I would check the O/R's as I found one that looked suspect. I wonder if these have unleaded O/R's?

I don't have any drain plugs in boot but do note that the hot exhaust runs under there...

Edited August 15, 2017 by Rem18

[Mike C]

My 10 year pedestal seals are still Ok, I hope that the rebuilder used a viton fuel seal which should last for a while.

 

I installed my ball valve between the fuel tank and the filter , that way I can shut off the fuel to replace the filter. I have a small priming pump with good suction at the bottom of the wheel well feeding the Bosch so I have some latitude in what I can install in the suction line.

 

The ss ball valve has Teflon seals - there won't be much they can put in petrol that can affect it.

 

You will have a rubber plug in the boot under the spare wheel- I leave it out so the boot can't fill with rainwater, spilled petrol etc. It serves no purpose other than keeping dust out of the wheel well - I can live with the dust.

[Rem18]

My 10 year pedestal seals are still Ok, I hope that the rebuilder used a viton fuel seal which should last for a while.

 

I installed my ball valve between the fuel tank and the filter , that way I can shut off the fuel to replace the filter. I have a small priming pump with good suction at the bottom of the wheel well feeding the Bosch so I have some latitude in what I can install in the suction line.

 

The ss ball valve has Teflon seals - there won't be much they can put in petrol that can affect it.

 

You will have a rubber plug in the boot under the spare wheel- I leave it out so the boot can't fill with rainwater, spilled petrol etc. It serves no purpose other than keeping dust out of the wheel well - I can live with the dust.

You are runing an electric pump to fuel the Bosch?

I can't say I have ever had problems, I still have the CAV feeding the Bosch that is well below tank line inside boot. The central forward bung is out but as I said if fuel were to spill the exhaust is under there.

[Mike C]

Yes, it's often called a priming pump, same general configuration as the Bosch but a smaller pump with a low head and good suction. It feeds into the Bosch suction overcoming the poor suction performance of Bosch pumps. Seems a reliable system, I've seem it used a fair bit- on local cars and on this forum. My Bosch is fixed to the passenger wheel arch which allows me to use the spare wheel well as the priming pump fits snugly just behind the filter.

 

I leave the forward bung out. My exhausts run either side of the boot . But in case of spillage a hot exhaust will evaporate spilled fuel falling on it which will blow away provided there is no source of ignition. A wheel well full of petrol with say a spark from the pump wiring or boot light is the stuff of nightmares.

[astontr6]

Hi Bruce,

Looks like you are ahead of me with the Gates Barricade hoses.

I contacted 2 main TR suppliers and asked for the specification of the hoses used for the two HP applications: Pump to PRV and fuel pipe to MU.

One did not know it "but it should be ok". Bot a very satisfying answer.

The other (Revington) has good specific information on their website, and also indicated their rubber hoses will smell (are permeable) and the best option to eliminate smell is to use teflon lined hoses. Revington sell both options, rubber and ptfe.

Downside of the ptfe lined hoses is the inability to dampen vibrations (pulsations), which can result in noise.

I considered using AN style fittings but am not convinced this is a better solution.

I would be keen to learn what couplings you used for the Gates hoses, and which type of the Gates hoses.

I have dismantled the original hoses (hard as plastic and fractured but probably very old), so have the original fittings.

The old hoses were fitted with jubilee clips, this is not a good practice given the service, temperature and pressure I feel.

Thanks,

Waldi

Most of the PTFE type hoses that I have seen are smooth bore which are rated at 1000psi! They are way over the top, not very flexible and generate the dreaded harmonic hammering when used with Bosch pumps! What suppliers should have offered is the convoluted PTFE S/S braided type which are very flexible as used in the Aerospace Industry. These are less prone to the harmonic hammering? On my Gates hoses I used standard BSP swaged sleeve end fittings as I have always, never had a problem and no hammering!

Bruce.

[Rem18]

Yes, it's often called a priming pump, same general configuration as the Bosch but a smaller pump with a low head and good suction. It feeds into the Bosch suction overcoming the poor suction performance of Bosch pumps. Seems a reliable system, I've seem it used a fair bit- on local cars and on this forum. My Bosch is fixed to the passenger wheel arch which allows me to use the spare wheel well as the priming pump fits snugly just behind the filter.

 

I leave the forward bung out. My exhausts run either side of the boot . But in case of spillage a hot exhaust will evaporate spilled fuel falling on it which will blow away provided there is no source of ignition. A wheel well full of petrol with say a spark from the pump wiring or boot light is the stuff of nightmares.

I have to say I must be the exception to the rule?

I have everything they say don't do and it works fine. My Bosch is on the side of the spare wheel well, I still use the CAV. The wheel fits, it has 18" of pipe so is probably self priming. Whenever I take the pipe off at the pump fuel runs ok.

It doesn't run hot and isn't particularly noisy unless I do a LH sharp turn near empty.

I think the pump is a 947 not a 966 but it doesn't seem at all to be a problem considering what I read???

[Rem18]

Most of the PTFE type hoses that I have seen are smooth bore which are rated at 1000psi! They are way over the top, not very flexible and generate the dreaded harmonic hammering when used with Bosch pumps! What suppliers should have offered is the convoluted PTFE S/S braided type which are very flexible as used in the Aerospace Industry. These are less prone to the harmonic hammering? On my Gates hoses I used standard BSP swaged sleeve end fittings as I have always, never had a problem and no hammering!

Bruce.

Bruce

Can you link some examples?

What's a swag sleeve?

I have to say I eliminated a lot of noise just resting rubber hoses on some soft material that seems to absorb noises.

T

[Rem18]

Most of the PTFE type hoses that I have seen are smooth bore which are rated at 1000psi! They are way over the top, not very flexible and generate the dreaded harmonic hammering when used with Bosch pumps! What suppliers should have offered is the convoluted PTFE S/S braided type which are very flexible as used in the Aerospace Industry. These are less prone to the harmonic hammering? On my Gates hoses I used standard BSP swaged sleeve end fittings as I have always, never had a problem and no hammering!

Bruce.

How about these?

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3480

However I am still of the idea that braided isnt needed here and if anything it will tend to hide any defects.

I would be inclined for ptfe but not braided and convert most fittings to screw.

I have a Formula 3 road car and that has all made to measure aero braided screw fitted hoses.

Buts thats another story.

https://www.google.it/search?client=ubuntu&hs=U1w&channel=fs&biw=1301&bih=671&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=michelotti+pura&oq=michelotti+pura&gs_l=psy-ab.3...434618.437618.0.438265.15.15.0.0.0.0.205.2252.1j12j1.14.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.11.1884...0j0i67k1j0i5i30k1j0i8i30k1.6sZx3ATcVgM#imgrc=eZB1uurnptVBGM:

Edited August 16, 2017 by Rem18

[Motorsport Mickey]

Yes, it's often called a priming pump, same general configuration as the Bosch but a smaller pump with a low head and good suction. It feeds into the Bosch suction overcoming the poor suction performance of Bosch pumps. Seems a reliable system, I've seem it used a fair bit- on local cars and on this forum. My Bosch is fixed to the passenger wheel arch which allows me to use the spare wheel well as the priming pump fits snugly just behind the filter.

 

I leave the forward bung out. My exhausts run either side of the boot . But in case of spillage a hot exhaust will evaporate spilled fuel falling on it which will blow away provided there is no source of ignition. A wheel well full of petrol with say a spark from the pump wiring or boot light is the stuff of nightmares.

Just to pick up on this thread and because the discussion here features new members with little experience of me harping on about fitting a rear alloy firewall in front of the fuel tank, fitting one behind the "comedy" 3mm hardboard panel which is supposed to keep petrol away from the driver and passenger is a very cheap and highly recommended safety modification.

 

The alloy panel is easily made yourself in 2mm alloy sheet (flexible and easily formed) with it's contours traced from the original hardboard panel onto it and then cut out. The side sections over the wheel arches are normally cut out separately in two "ears" and secured to the large panel by rivets when in place. The large single firewall panel should be sealed with intumescent sealer or at the worst Indasa windscreen sealer (it doesn't have to have long term resistance, a minute or two will get you out of the car) underneath the panel and then riveted every 25mm to the cockpit frame and vertical uprights, the aforementioned two separate ears which cover the gaps over the wheelarches riveted and sealed to it and the vertical sides of the inner wings behind the cockpit side trim panels. The original hardboard panel will fit easily in front of the alloy sheet so nobody will know you are now considerably safer than previously.

 

Whether or not we think that this alloy sheet will save our lives if a spare wheel well of accumulated spilled petrol ignites is a mute point, the Motorsports body in the UK here DEMANDS that one be fitted if you are to participate in motorsports. They've studied the likely vehicle scenarios by inspecting the remains of cars and incidents over the years and rules evolve to minimise the risk. It may be you never will compete but why should your car be less safe driving on public roads ?

Under most circumstances the alloy panel will add considerable safety to the more likely circumstance of a slow motion, off highway sideways excursion caused by an avoidance manoeuvre which terminates in a roll over causing the rear frame of the car to lozenge and split the fuel tank. Being doused in 10 gallons of petrol is not to be recommended especially that then, with possible shorted electrics a spark stands every chance of flambéing the occupants.

Of course by then they may have already been squashed for without a rear rollover bar sensibly cross braced in the cockpit the windscreen (and rear alloy Surrey backlight if fitted), will have folded flat to the door line now making your TR a car about 1 metre high with your head and shoulders protruding and meeting the ground first. The rear roll over bar with cross brace also does an OK job in helping the cockpit withstand a side impact from a Transit van helping prevent the rear frame lozenge and split the fuel tank which is where we came in. We can't make 50 year old cars as safe as moderns but we can make them lots safer.

 

Mick Richards

Edited August 16, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey

[Waldi]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks.

Quote: "On my Gates hoses I used standard BSP swaged sleeve end fittings as I have always, never had a problem and no hammering!" Unquote.

 

Just to understand better: can you use the

ferrule that is on the original fitting and simply push the Gates hose over it? Or does it require a new fitting? The original hose does not have a clamp.

Is an additional (jubilee or else) clip needed?

Thanks for your help,

Waldi

Edited August 16, 2017 by Waldi