Rem18 Posted August 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Just to pick up on this thread and because the discussion here features new members with little experience of me harping on about fitting a rear alloy firewall in front of the fuel tank, fitting one behind the "comedy" 3mm hardboard panel which is supposed to keep petrol away from the driver and passenger is a very cheap and highly recommended safety modification. The alloy panel is easily made yourself in 2mm alloy sheet (flexible and easily formed) with it's contours traced from the original hardboard panel onto it and then cut out. The side sections over the wheel arches are normally cut out separately in two "ears" and secured to the large panel by rivets when in place. The large single firewall panel should be sealed with intumescent sealer or at the worst Indasa windscreen sealer (it doesn't have to have long term resistance, a minute or two will get you out of the car) underneath the panel and then riveted every 25mm to the cockpit frame and vertical uprights, the aforementioned two separate ears which cover the gaps over the wheelarches riveted and sealed to it and the vertical sides of the inner wings behind the cockpit side trim panels. The original hardboard panel will fit easily in front of the alloy sheet so nobody will know you are now considerably safer than previously. Whether or not we think that this alloy sheet will save our lives if a spare wheel well of accumulated spilled petrol ignites is a mute point, the Motorsports body in the UK here DEMANDS that one be fitted if you are to participate in motorsports. They've studied the likely vehicle scenarios by inspecting the remains of cars and incidents over the years and rules evolve to minimise the risk. It may be you never will compete but why should your car be less safe driving on public roads ? Under most circumstances the alloy panel will add considerable safety to the more likely circumstance of a slow motion, off highway sideways excursion caused by an avoidance manoeuvre which terminates in a roll over causing the rear frame of the car to lozenge and split the fuel tank. Being doused in 10 gallons of petrol is not to be recommended especially that then, with possible shorted electrics a spark stands every chance of flambéing the occupants. Of course by then they may have already been squashed for without a rear rollover bar sensibly cross braced in the cockpit the windscreen (and rear alloy Surrey backlight if fitted), will have folded flat to the door line now making your TR a car about 1 metre high with your head and shoulders protruding and meeting the ground first. The rear roll over bar with cross brace also does an OK job in helping the cockpit withstand a side impact from a Transit van helping prevent the rear frame lozenge and split the fuel tank which is where we came in. We can't make 50 year old cars as safe as moderns but we can make them lots safer. Mick Richards Wow Mick you have said the lot!???? I have to say my F3 road car has a purpose made FIA spec soft tank with honeycomb internals and at this point maybe one of these fitted in place of the TR tank might be an alternative . It would also stop LH turn syndrome too.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Hi Bruce, Thanks. Quote: "On my Gates hoses I used standard BSP swaged sleeve end fittings as I have always, never had a problem and no hammering!" Unquote. Just to understand better: can you use the ferrule that is on the original fitting and simply push the Gates hose over it? Or does it require a new fitting? The original hose does not have a clamp. Is an additional (jubilee or else) clip needed? Thanks for your help, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Waldi If you google that you will see there are many bsp fittings with push on nozzles. Ideally you should use petrol clips. If not two jubilee clips turned at 45-90* to each other should fit as just one jubilee will allow petrol to seep where the screw is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Bruce Can you link some examples? What's a swag sleeve? Its a tube of metal cut and formed to length, then crimped over the outer hose jacket to seal the hose on to the end fitting where a high pressure hose is required. If you look at the original HP rubber pipe from the steel tubing to M/U in the engine compartment, this hose has swaged sleeves at each end. Hope this helps! Bruce. I have to say I eliminated a lot of noise just resting rubber hoses on some soft material that seems to absorb noises. T Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Hi Bruce, Thanks. Quote: "On my Gates hoses I used standard BSP swaged sleeve end fittings as I have always, never had a problem and no hammering!" Unquote. Just to understand better: can you use the ferrule that is on the original fitting and simply push the Gates hose over it? Or does it require a new fitting? The original hose does not have a clamp. Is an additional (jubilee or else) clip needed? Thanks for your help, Waldi You should always use a new ferrule and it should be crimped or swaged. Bruce Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Just to pick up on this thread and because the discussion here features new members with little experience of me harping on about fitting a rear alloy firewall in front of the fuel tank, fitting one behind the "comedy" 3mm hardboard panel which is supposed to keep petrol away from the driver and passenger is a very cheap and highly recommended safety modification. The alloy panel is easily made yourself in 2mm alloy sheet (flexible and easily formed) with it's contours traced from the original hardboard panel onto it and then cut out. The side sections over the wheel arches are normally cut out separately in two "ears" and secured to the large panel by rivets when in place. The large single firewall panel should be sealed with intumescent sealer or at the worst Indasa windscreen sealer (it doesn't have to have long term resistance, a minute or two will get you out of the car) underneath the panel and then riveted every 25mm to the cockpit frame and vertical uprights, the aforementioned two separate ears which cover the gaps over the wheelarches riveted and sealed to it and the vertical sides of the inner wings behind the cockpit side trim panels. The original hardboard panel will fit easily in front of the alloy sheet so nobody will know you are now considerably safer than previously. Whether or not we think that this alloy sheet will save our lives if a spare wheel well of accumulated spilled petrol ignites is a mute point, the Motorsports body in the UK here DEMANDS that one be fitted if you are to participate in motorsports. They've studied the likely vehicle scenarios by inspecting the remains of cars and incidents over the years and rules evolve to minimise the risk. It may be you never will compete but why should your car be less safe driving on public roads ? Under most circumstances the alloy panel will add considerable safety to the more likely circumstance of a slow motion, off highway sideways excursion caused by an avoidance manoeuvre which terminates in a roll over causing the rear frame of the car to lozenge and split the fuel tank. Being doused in 10 gallons of petrol is not to be recommended especially that then, with possible shorted electrics a spark stands every chance of flambéing the occupants. Of course by then they may have already been squashed for without a rear rollover bar sensibly cross braced in the cockpit the windscreen (and rear alloy Surrey backlight if fitted), will have folded flat to the door line now making your TR a car about 1 metre high with your head and shoulders protruding and meeting the ground first. The rear roll over bar with cross brace also does an OK job in helping the cockpit withstand a side impact from a Transit van helping prevent the rear frame lozenge and split the fuel tank which is where we came in. We can't make 50 year old cars as safe as moderns but we can make them lots safer. Mick Richards +1 Many years ago TRA published a letter from a driver who reported sliding along upside down in a ditch with wet grass wiping his face. The roll cage had turned a tragedy into a reminiscence. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Sorry Bruce and REM, I do not understand. BSP means "British Standard Pipe" to me, the standard for pipe threads I also am familiar with. I guess because I'm not Brittish. I googled "BSP fittings" and not all BSP fittings gave this conical or sperical metal to metal seat, i guess there are different specifications. Can you point me in the right direction by part numbers from a particular suppier please? Or would it be easier to ask Revington to supply the assembled hoses with Gates Barrier hose? Thanks for your help. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Waldi Can I suggest you take your fittings to a reputable hose maker like a hydraulic hose fitter (most excavators use British) if they can't supply the ptfe fuel pipe buy an appropriate length and ask them to make up the measurements according to your needs. Are you running a bosch? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Hi Rem, Yes, I am running a Bosch pump. I do not want PTFE (lined) hoses because of the risk of vibrations, and I also do not want unbranded rubber hoses as supplied by some. That it what made me look at the Gates Barrier hoses. Think I will take my old hoses to a local hydraulic hose supplier, as you propose. Regards, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Hi Rem, Yes, I am running a Bosch pump. I do not want PTFE (lined) hoses because of the risk of vibrations, and I also do not want unbranded rubber hoses as supplied by some. That it what made me look at the Gates Barrier hoses. Think I will take my old hoses to a local hydraulic hose supplier, as you propose. Regards, Waldi You can order the Gates and get them made up. But I am not sure if the Gates will give some noise too best to ask Bruce? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 You can order the Gates and get them made up. But I am not sure if the Gates will give some noise too best to ask Bruce? Waldi Let us know how you get on as I am thinking of getting custom made hoses too. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 Gi Tony, I will. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 Gi Tony, I will. Waldi I have used Gates Barraicade Hoses from the USA, mine came from the USA. I was unable to locate a supplier in the EU and Gates did not seem to have a base in the UK, although they sell automotive products here, but someone on the forum might know. My local hose supplier made up these hoses from the samples that I supplied. I have had no harmonic hammering from the PRV, since fitting them! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 Exactly Bruce I agree. Get the hose and fitting measure up and get a local supplier to crimp the fittings. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 I have used Gates Barraicade Hoses from the USA, mine came from the USA. I was unable to locate a supplier in the EU and Gates did not seem to have a base in the UK, although they sell automotive products here, but someone on the forum might know. My local hose supplier made up these hoses from the samples that I supplied. I have had no harmonic hammering from the PRV, since fitting them! Bruce. See my post #59 for UK suppliers. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 Stuart. I have some US colleagues coming over in a couple of weeks (to Holland), can you give me the vendor and the part number you ordered please? I am aware there are different pressure ratings and sizes. Thanks, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 This link gives you the sizes available in that type of hose. Its rated at 300PSI. http://www.parkerhydraulics.co.uk/hydraulics/gates-hydraulic-hose/gates-lock-on-plus-hose/ Data sheet here http://www.parkerhydraulics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Lock-On-Plus.pdf Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 Thanks Stuart! Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 This link gives you the sizes available in that type of hose. Its rated at 300PSI. http://www.parkerhydraulics.co.uk/hydraulics/gates-hydraulic-hose/gates-lock-on-plus-hose/ Data sheet here http://www.parkerhydraulics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Lock-On-Plus.pdf Stuart. Stuart, that is not the correct hose type? They are for industrial applications and not automotive! The SAE spec. that is required is: J30R9 Gates #4219BF, Temp range-40C to+135C, Pressure 225 psi. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 Stuart, that is not the correct hose type? They are for industrial applications and not automotive! The SAE spec. that is required is: J30R9 Gates #4219BF, Temp range-40C to+135C, Pressure 225 psi. Bruce. Sorry a typo in Gates spec # should read: 4219BF. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted August 19, 2017 Report Share Posted August 19, 2017 Stuart, that is not the correct hose type? They are for industrial applications and not automotive! The SAE spec. that is required is: J30R9 Gates #4219BF, Temp range-40C to+135C, Pressure 225 psi. Bruce. I will be talking to them Monday to check that. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2017 Yes the spec is j30r9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2017 +1 Many years ago TRA published a letter from a driver who reported sliding along upside down in a ditch with wet grass wiping his face. The roll cage had turned a tragedy into a reminiscence. Peter Mick just coming back on this and speaking to someone, they showed me a firewall made for a car with 120m plasterboard. Can you believe it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 19, 2017 Report Share Posted August 19, 2017 (edited) Mick just coming back on this and speaking to someone, they showed me a firewall made for a car with 120m plasterboard. Can you believe it? Well it has some fire resistance but bugger all in impact or stress figures. As we've said before problem with the TRs is they have nada structural integrity WITHOUT the fuel tank which effectively becomes a stressed 500mm square boxmember absorbing cross diagonal forces from the frame and helping keep the cockpit sides from touching ! Unhelpfully it's full of toxic and flammable fluid which will flood through as the boxmember ruptures from the forces into the cockpit as we've discussed through voids or split edges in the rear hardboard firewall. I rather think the alloy sheet is better although at least a couple of owners have welded a steel sheet across the frame and sealed in position which will help stiffen the shell a treat and start to give a decent chance of unsinged occupants in the event of a fire ! Mick Richards Edited August 19, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2017 Yes of course structure what with scuttle shake and all is missing. Board would crack. Steel would sound good. What would carbon fiber like? I have a road F3 car and it's all glued Ali and carbon fibre. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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