Peter Cobbold Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) No I don't think it will, I did originally, but not now. That was my comment about rotor tip to cam angle. If you unscrew the cam and move it, it moves the rotor exactly the same number of deg. So net zero gain. Hence my comment that something needs to move the complete points assembly relative to the cam and rotor. Alan The net gain is between the crank angle and rotor arm/cap angle, I think. I agree the moving plate position needs looking into - waiting for Mortens photo of the points plate. Peter Edited August 17, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) Good morning, attached a few picutures of the distributor contact plate. The picture "as received" with the yellow condenser cable is how is was when I received if from overhaul. I changed the contact plate, point to coil and condenser due that might have been the problem starting earlier. Thought the condenser blew when the braided fuel hoses shortet to the distributor/coil terminal on the coil. Anyway, the other picutres are from today (orange cable). Can't see anything directly wrong there. If I firmly hold the lower end of the distributor (where it is supposed to fit the distributor drive shaft) and the top (cam, where the rotor goes), I am able to to rotate the top (rotor) by approx 15 dgr. But that is how it should be, I guess. Edited August 18, 2016 by MortenHoyseth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Neil, I did double check the TDC now - I might have been a few degrees off when taking the pictures. I moved back and forth on the pulley a few times, and seems like #11/#12 are in balance at that point. But it does not take many degrees of CW pulley movement before #12 is opening. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Ok a picture saves a thousand words and these have confirmed what I thought going to bed last night (sad isn't it!) Below are a couple of pictures from my identical dizzy, however I don't run an internal condenser (as its a **** place to fit them, and you cant get a big enough one in!) so it makes it a bit easier to see. The rotation you are feeling is correct for the mechanical advance, but what you have done if you compare pictures is to somehow lock the base plate into the full vacuum advance position, this has exactly the effect we were looking for of moving the whole point set relative to the cam. Picture 1 is with the base plate in the zero position, the plate can be pulled by the retard capsule in an anti clockwise direction, however even though you don't have a vacuum advance capsule if you look at picture 2 you can see that the plate can be rotated in the advance direction. I am holding it with the screwdriver in maximum advance position. If you compare it with your picture you can see that yours is jambed in full advance. I suspect that you have used either a too long screw to secure the condenser or the point set thus jambing it in that position, this may have happened when you fitted and removed the pertronix unit? I actually fit a screw in the condenser fixing hole to lock my base plate so it can't move in either retard or advance direction, but that's because I only want mechanical advance to occur. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) Good morning, attached a few picutures of the distributor contact plate. The picture "as received" with the yellow condenser cable is how is was when I received if from overhaul. I changed the contact plate, point to coil and condenser due that might have been the problem starting earlier. Thought the condenser blew when the braided fuel hoses shortet to the distributor/coil terminal on the coil. Anyway, the other picutres are from today (orange cable). Can't see anything directly wrong there. If I firmly hold the lower end of the distributor (where it is supposed to fit the distributor drive shaft) and the top (cam, where the rotor goes), I am able to to rotate the top (rotor) by approx 15 dgr. But that is how it should be, I guess. Morten, Alan #104 makes sense. And he has a USA distributor like yours to hand too. Go with his advice To see the angle changes I use an imaginary line from the centre of the shaft ( screw head or foam insert in your case) to the midline of the projecting lug on the casing for locating the cap . Look where that imaginary line intersects the plastic body of the points and you'll see the angles changing as the points plate turns. Compare Alans first photo with yours and youll see your points are as Alan says about 15 deg too clockwise Peter Edited August 18, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Alan, GREAT! This makes absolute sense I tried now to remove the screws (condenser and the largest one used for adjusting the contact point. None of them interfere with the plate below. I am able to rotate the base plate both ways (quite hard though). But I agree and see that the base plate is too far clockwise. This is your point, right? If I use a slim washer on the screw for adjusting the contact gap, I can use it as a max/stop for the plate to turn clockwise. And from what I can see, then the rotor just about touches the #1 contact point in the distributor cap. Could this be right? In that case it would not be able to rotate further clockwise (the plate that is). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) Alan, GREAT! This makes absolute sense I tried now to remove the screws (condenser and the largest one used for adjusting the contact point. None of them interfere with the plate below. I am able to rotate the base plate both ways (quite hard though). But I agree and see that the base plate is too far clockwise. This is your point, right? If I use a slim washer on the screw for adjusting the contact gap, I can use it as a max/stop for the plate to turn clockwise. And from what I can see, then the rotor just about touches the #1 contact point in the distributor cap. Could this be right? In that case it would not be able to rotate further clockwise (the plate that is). Morten, If the rotor just about touches the contact, with crank at 12BTDC, there is no allowance for the centrifugal advance of about 15 disy degrees. This will move the spark and rotor about 15 deg clockwise.. I guess contact will be lost again.You can check by twisting the rotor clockwise to simulate the c/f advance working. What we need is another anothr 15 degrees... What about moving the plate the opposite way to see of the preceeding cap contact, clockwise to the contact you are focused upon at present, will match up? Then the cf/ advnance will move the rotor back ( clockwise) onto the contact. Then move #1 lead to that contact. The worry is that this should not be a problem. We are trying to cure a ca 30 disy degree mismatch between rotor and cap that should not occur. If the crank really is at 12 BTDC then the rotor and contacts should align, its in the design of the disy. Its a fixed relationship that we'd never need to adjust. So check TDC accurately with a piston stop. After that I hope Neil will tell us exactly how to check the cam timing in relation to the crank**. If all those turn out to be correct I think we have to consider the disy-drive gear on the cam being machined wrong, but I've never heard of that. Peter If the disy is 30 deg out then the camshaft will be too. And the measurements you make on the crank will be 60 deg out. Edited August 18, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Morten As i said one step at a time,you must not trust the pully mark.Remove plugs use a torch look down number 1 and bring the piston up to the top,where is the mark now and is 11 and 12 in balance? after that will time the dog drive and Mu Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) All good with that Neil - I'll proceed with that Thanks! Can't hold back on some questions regarding the dissy, though Attached picture - with letters A, B and C. Picture from today. A)As I've removed most components from the base plate, if I remove the spring A from the pin, the plate moves freely. As far as I can understand, the only thing keeping the plate in this position is the spring A. I could fix a screw, that prevents the plate from going this far clockwise (see the opening in plate below). However, no screws on the base plate should interfere with the plate below, I understand from Dist. Doctor. C)The tap/pin entered in the track below C, is just as far as it can be going clockwise. Loooots of room in anti-clockwise direction, though. Wasn't this your point, Alan? That it's way to far clockwise? But I cannot find any way to move it. Well, I could remove spring (A), but that does not help Peter - regarding advance. Isn't the advance actually moving the rotor anti-clockwise (springs and mechanism further down in the dissy), rather than moving the baseplate clockwise? Effect would be the same, so this is more about me trying to learn and get it right But Neil - will check TDC again. And check it well. Edited August 18, 2016 by MortenHoyseth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFfnenMFQ3U Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) Morten, Peter - regarding advance. Isn't the advance actually moving the rotor anti-clockwise (springs and mechanism further down in the dissy), rather than moving the baseplate clockwise? Effect would be the same, so this is more about me trying to learn and get it right Youre quite right, my mistake, my apologies. When the c/f advance is in the spark will occur earlier in time, and to do that the points have to open earlier which means the cam has to be moved anticlockwise by the c/f springs. So the rotoer will engage the contact better as the c/f comes in. The points plate can be fixed solid as the vac retard is not needed, and the PI never used vac advance ( and you dont have that fitted anyway). Its still a worry why the rotor doesnt line up as the disy components are good. It should just slot into the drive dog and work. I'm now hoping TDC is a long way off correct, it would now be the simplest reason. Peter Edited August 18, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Neil, I've verified: * TDC for #1 firing - it is on the mark on the pulley. The # piston is on top. * Valves #1/2 both closed. Valves #11/12 are in balance. From what I can see. Rotating the engine back/forth over the TDC#1, none of the valves seems fully 100% closed, just almost (they might be). Just by looking at them, they look closed, but might not be fully. They are in balance for sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 That sound good,now check the dizzy as per link I posted the end is part that yours should be like. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Thanks Neil, I've watched the Moss video, and checked that the mechanical advance works as described. However, I have not tested it/watched it when the engine is running (due to the problem), but I have seen the strobe light indicating advance (dgr BTDC increase) as the engine is reved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Ok Why is the condenser outside the dizzy? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) There's a instructive video on 'rotor phasing' here: Pointing the strobe though a hole in the cap allows the rotor tobe 'frozen' and the spark seen. Neat. Morten, Note the adjustable rotor position. Similar to Alans comment ( #94) about the rotor being movable on the shaft. Might be an idea to explore that, or ask Disy Dr what position they set it at and if its important for 'rotor phasing' Can you hear sparks at tickover: http://www.team.net/html/triumphs/2008-09/msg00017.html BUT rotor phasing is not a required procedure in any of theTR workshop manuals. Phasing is fixed in the disy design, so we should not be trying to correct it ! I am puzzled. I can see the answer in fettling the points plate but dont see what has made it necessary. Peter Edited August 18, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Put the dizzy back the way it was when Martin sent it to you the brown book will help you. Then we can move on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 A) As I've removed most components from the base plate, if I remove the spring A from the pin, the plate moves freely. As far as I can understand, the only thing keeping the plate in this position is the spring A. I could fix a screw, that prevents the plate from going this far clockwise (see the opening in plate below). However, no screws on the base plate should interfere with the plate below, I understand from Dist. Doctor. C) The tap/pin entered in the track below C, is just as far as it can be going clockwise. Loooots of room in anti-clockwise direction, though. Wasn't this your point, Alan? That it's way to far clockwise? But I cannot find any way to move it. Well, I could remove spring (A), but that does not help The points plate can be fixed solid as the vac retard is not needed, and the PI never used vac advance ( and you dont have that fitted anyway). Its still a worry why the rotor doesnt line up as the disy components are good. It should just slot into the drive dog and work. I'm now hoping TDC is a long way off correct, it would now be the simplest reason. Peter All of this is because the plate the contacts fit to is rotated too far clockwise i.e. advanced. If the plate is moved anti clockwise when the points start opening the rotor will be in the correct position in the cap. That plate should be about 15deg further anticlockwise, look at the pictures the bottom edge of the condenser slot should just line up with the cap locating notch in the body when at zero (i.e. no vac advance pulling it clockwise and no vac retard pulling anti clockwise) Something is holding that plate in the wrong position! The position it is in is the full vac advance position, and you can see that the retard spring is trying to pull it back but can't. Unhook the retard spring, the plate should freely rotate backwards and forwards with virtually no resistance, if it doesn't find out why! If it does, and the retard spring doesn't return the mounting plate to the correct zero position, then either the mounting plate is incorrect, or possibly the max vacuum advance arm on the cam shaft is either incorrect, damaged or jambed. Until the points mounting plate is returned to its correct position the points will always be opening far too early for the position the cam and rotor have reached. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Just possibility is it the retard spring that is preventing the plate returning to its correct zero position? i,e, is the spring under compression rather than a small amount of extension. I have a feeling that the springs on a vac advance capsule are longer than those on a vac retard capsule, I think because on those distributors that are fitted with both the advance one has to sit further away from the pin than the retard one. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) dissybad.jpg dissywithoutadvance.jpg Just possibility is it the retard spring that is preventing the plate returning to its correct zero position? i,e, is the spring under compression rather than a small amount of extension. I have a feeling that the springs on a vac advance capsule are longer than those on a vac retard capsule, I think because on those distributors that are fitted with both the advance one has to sit further away from the pin than the retard one. Alan +1 X 10 Wrong spring ! So....remove the spring and vac ret capsule ( its not needed), turn the points plate anticlockw, and then anchor the pin to the casing so the plate is fixed. Peter Edited August 18, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 I give in this is getting daft. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Morten, Note the adjustable rotor position. Similar to Alans comment ( #94) about the rotor being movable on the shaft. Might be an idea to explore that, or ask Disy Dr what position they set it at and if its important for 'rotor phasing' Hi Peter Just thought I'd add a note on this in case anyone got the impression it was adjustable. Its not supposed to be it only has one correct position which is easy to feel, all I was exploring was if you undid the screw holding it down, would it move on the shaft? it will a bit, and also discovered that the screw would hold it down approx 10deg misaligned. Its just possible its something someone could do if they didn't ensure that the cam was fully located on the shaft. But also as I explained it can't make the cam and rotor go out of phase, or stop you timing a distributor correctly. About the only time I think it could affect anything would be if you had the distributor installed and timed correctly, and then (for some strange reason) removed the screw and wiggled the cam and then secured it down slightly rotated, this would alter your static timing. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 @Neil - allright, understand - it's has been a long thread. Thanks for your help so far, anyway. I'll continue on your latest post/comment here with the dizzy back in place, and set ut as from Dist. doc. I have no intention of giving up, though - bad sleep, with car not running and bad sleep -> grumpy me -> lower WAF -> no car time -> misrable life and so on @Peter/Alan - good points indeed. First I thought the solution was there, now a bit more sceptic. Reason is the distributor has been working fine with these spring(s) both priori to engine rebuild, and after (for a short period anyway). If I unhook the advance spring the plate is free to move. When mounted, it is in not compressed nor streched. The only thing that keep the plate in that position is the spring. And that looks healty and has not been touched (before today). The spring might end up being the problem, but I'll go for Neil (and others) suggestion on taking it back to start. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Don't put it back in place untill you are happy that it was as Martin sent it to you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Nope, but it is as it was when I got it now. I can't find anything destroyed/damaged, and from the pictures taken before all this, it looks identical. That's the best I can do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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