TR6 PI starts with a bang, then dies

[Guest ntc]

Good

Now do you know fact as per book how to install the drive and pedastal with the slot in the right place for the MU ?

[MortenHoyseth]

Yes, I believe so. I can see from the brown book, distributor drive shafts should look from above when fitted. I'll check for gasket/clearance heigth. Fit the pedestal with the MU. When TDC for #1, port #6 should be about 50% open (and increasing). Should be more or less everything, right?

[oldtuckunder]

If I unhook the advance spring the plate is free to move. When mounted, it is in not compressed nor streched. The only thing that keep the plate in that position is the spring.

 

Neither is my spring, now look where the end of your spring is, its longer than mine pushing the base plate advanced.

 

OK I give in also, I await the results of the valve cam re-timing!

 

Alan

[Guest ntc]

Nope off car put the drive in the pedastal where it is right for the dizzy and slot for the Mu keep doing this untill right,mark the ped for the mu drive and then remove drive slowly and mark again. Do no more .

edit at number 1 fire

Edited August 18, 2016 by ntc

[MortenHoyseth]

Uhm, got it. I went out in the garage to execute, but back with questions. Want to do it absolutely right.

1) By "right for the dizzy" - you mean that the nose of the rotor should point to #1 in the cap, right? I'm asking because taking the contact point into the equation, that won't match up (it is just closing).

2) I have not detached the dizzy pedestal from the MU. Does it matter? The drive dog between MU and pedestal is connected, and rotation is fine.

3) Given this I've marked the position on the pedestal vs. distributor drive shaft in this position.

[Guest ntc]

Uhm, got it. I went out in the garage to execute, but back with questions. Want to do it absolutely right.

 

1) By "right for the dizzy" - you mean that the nose of the rotor should point to #1 in the cap, right? I'm asking because taking the contact point into the equation, that won't match up (it is just closing).

 

2) I have not detached the dizzy pedestal from the MU. Does it matter? The drive dog between MU and pedestal is connected, and rotation is fine.

 

3) Given this I've marked the position on the pedestal vs. distributor drive shaft in this position.

1

No the rotor should be approaching number 1 and points about to open.

2

you have shown pics with the drive removed

3

it will be now out

[John L]

Here is a picture of my dizy set to fire on number 1 cylinder, I agree its got an electronic points, and its not an American with retard.

 

The base plate that holds the condenser screw is level with the base plate screw, on the right. This would surely put the points into the correct orientation with the dizy cap, compared to what you have with yours at present?

 

Morten

Is you rotor arm in the same position when you are firing on #1 cylinder? Could you give a picture of your dizy when its 12 degrees before on #1 cylinder pls.

 

I know you say that the engine did run but there are things now that just don't add up for some reason.

 

Did you look at the orientation of the drive on the bottom of the dizy to the rotor arm, are as the picture in the Brown book?

[Guest ntc]

This is going to run but that is also out but will run fine

[MortenHoyseth]

Neil,

 

1) ok

 

2) I meant that the MU is bolted to the dizzy pedestal. so haven't taken the MU off the pedestal. the pedestal with MU attached, is off the block, so I can retract the dizzy drive shaft.

[Peter Cobbold]

Here is a picture of my dizy set to fire on number 1 cylinder, I agree its got an electronic points, and its not an American with retard.

 

The base plate that holds the condenser screw is level with the base plate screw, on the right. This would surely put the points into the correct orientation with the dizy cap, compared to what you have with yours at present?

 

Morten

Is you rotor arm in the same position when you are firing on #1 cylinder? Could you give a picture of your dizy when its 12 degrees before on #1 cylinder pls.

 

I know you say that the engine did run but there are things now that just don't add up for some reason.

 

Did you look at the orientation of the drive on the bottom of the dizy to the rotor arm, are as the picture in the Brown book?

IMG_0897.JPG

Now we can see the difference in the point plate position between the above photo and Morten's #102.

Look at the pin anchoring the spring. Johns is a few mm anticlockw ot the lug on the body that locates the cap.

Morten's is several mm clockwise of the lug.The difference in points plate position must be about 1cm, roughly 30 degrees, and easily covers the 'rotor phasing' mismatch.

Alan was right - the spring is too long.

@ Morten, I would remove the spring, fix the points plate with the pin in the position as shown by John.Check with the inspection cap that the rotor mates with the cap contact at both 12BTDC and with the c'fugal springs twisted.

Fire it up.

Providing John's Hall effect electrickery has not required the points plate to be relocated we should be finished. A photo of PI disy runnnng on points would be good - anyone? ( mine has been molested )

Peter

Edited August 18, 2016 by Peter Cobbold

[Guest ntc]

Now we can see the difference in the point plate position between the above photo and Morten's #102.

Look at the pin anchoring the spring. Johns is a few mm anticlockw ot the lug on the body that locates the cap.

Morten's is several mm clockwise of the lug.The difference in points plate position must be about 1cm and easily covers the 'rotor phasing' mismatch.

Alan was right - the spring is too long.

@ Morten, I would remove the spring, fix the points plate with the pin in the position as shown by John.Check with the inspection cap that the rotor mates with the cap contact at both 12BTDC and with the c'fugal springs twisted.

Fire it up.

Peter

Bullsh!! sorry But martin would not send out a bad dizzy.

[Peter Cobbold]

Bullsh!! sorry But martin would not send out a bad dizzy.

A very rare mistake. But easily made. The application is for a PI engine. The vacuum unit is new. So a PI-spec unit was fitted. Of course. Unfortunately whoever fitted it did not realise it was a USA spec disy and fitted the capsule the only way it could go in.

I think it is entirely understandable and forgivable. 'Bitsa' engines can always throw up subtle snags. And this was subtle with knobs on.

 

Now Morten is going to tell us the engine wont run, and I'll have to delete the above.

Peter

[Guest ntc]

If he gave the spec to Martin it will be right.

[DaveN]

Do you mind if I butt in?

The trigger unit (mounted on the shaft) for the electronic ignition can be fitted in any one of six positions. So remove it and looking carefully at the trigger unit you should see a little round dot, that is the magnetic trigger and needs to point in the same direction as leg on the rotor arm.

Untidy but; The distributor can be installed in either position (governed by the offset drive dog) as long as with no1 cylinder on compression TDC the rotor arm is pointing to the lead that goes to no.1 plug.

 

Dave

[Peter Cobbold]

Do you mind if I butt in?

The trigger unit (mounted on the shaft) for the electronic ignition can be fitted in any one of six positions. So remove it and looking carefully at the trigger unit you should see a little round dot, that is the magnetic trigger and needs to point in the same direction as leg on the rotor arm.

Untidy but; The distributor can be installed in either position (governed by the offset drive dog) as long as with no1 cylinder on compression TDC the rotor arm is pointing to the lead that goes to no.1 plug.

 

Dave

Dave, Join the fray ! Morten is setting it up on points. The problem is the rotor arm is not wiping the cap contact when the spark fires. Despite setting the disy up as you say. At present there are two camps: a camshaft or fitting problem versus a 'rotor phasing' fault in the disy.

We shall see.....

 

I posted earlier a neat video about rotor phasing that could be useful when fitting electronic ignition sensors.

Peter

[DaveN]

Ok Peter.

Maybe I should go back and re-read the entire post! But in the meantime.......

So. Are we saying the rotor arm is not rotating?

If that is the case is the offset drive dog rotating in the pedestal?

If it is, then, is the pin (roll pin or mills pin) sheared/missing in the distributor?

[Peter Cobbold]

Ok Peter.

Maybe I should go back and re-read the entire post! But in the meantime.......

So. Are we saying the rotor arm is not rotating?

If that is the case is the offset drive dog rotating in the pedestal?

If it is, then, is the pin (roll pin or mills pin) sheared/missing in the distributor?

Dave, Yes, itsa good read !

Post 61 is where Morten found the rotor phasing problem, after cutting a hole an old disy cap at my suggestion:

Good tip regarding cutting away a bit of an old dizzy cap. I did (I'll attach a picture - it's not obvious from the picture which point is #1, but the rotor is approaching it). When the engine is at 12 dgr BTDC, and the point in the dizzy is just about to open (trigger-point of the bulb test - and I've done it right this time, Peter ), the rotor has not reached contact point for #1 inside the cap. It is actually half way between #4 (just left) and #1 (approaching). That can't be right?

^ That is a 'rotor phasing' fault. Its rare. Alan #119 identified the cause: the points plate pushed too far in the advance direction by an overlong vac capsule spring. Still not proven, mind, as Morten still has to see if repositioning the plate gets the engien running.

 

Yes, the pins have been checked, almost everything has been checked which is why we are at post #141....

 

Peter

[cp25616]

There are a lot of very clever people out there evidently and I for one have kept a good eye on this thread from the start. I am fascinated with this and can't wait for it to run properly and find out just what the problem actually was. This is actually more exciting than Game of Thrones!

Alan G.

[MortenHoyseth]

Little delay from my side here - I'll get back this afternoon with an update.
Neil, I believe I completed your last step yesterday.
Peter, hopefully I'll get to test out removing the spring also today, but best to follow one path at the time

[John L]

Morten

Can you give us the numbers stamped on the side of the distributor or a photo of it if its not back in again pls.

 

John

[MortenHoyseth]

I will provide the number, John

[oldtuckunder]

Morten

Can you give us the numbers stamped on the side of the distributor or a photo of it if its not back in again pls.

 

 

 

Can we also have the numbers stamped on the vacuum unit. As its a repro unit it may not have have the lucas LU number but I think I could see a trace of spec number i.e. 3-10-7

 

Alan

[oldtuckunder]

the points plate pushed too far in the advance direction by an overlong vac capsule spring. Still not proven, mind,

 

A couple of extra pictures taken at random from USA TR6 sites showing the retard dissy and the position of the retard spring pin in relation to the body.

 

Alan

[oldtuckunder]

Bullsh!! sorry But martin would not send out a bad dizzy.

 

I don't think anyone was saying it was a bad dissy, but if you look at the history of Mortens two threads, we have a scenario where he had a US spec TR6 (we think with the offending dissy) he dropped in a shagged 2.5PI lump and used the old dissy. At some point whilst using this engine he sent the dissy to Martin who rebuilt it (to what spec we don't know! did Morten tell him it was for a shagged 2.5PI or that he was going to get the engine rebuilt to ?spec) The dissy he sent almost certainly had an old original Lucas retard unit that was probably shagged and probably a LU54424200 unit that has a 3-10-7R spec. The vacuum unit now fitted to the dissy is a repro unit and probably a 3-10-7 spec (we wait to see).

 

It appears that when the dissy came back from Martin it was re-installed on the shagged 2.5PI engine, for how long we don't know, but as Morten says he had it refurbished about 2 years ago, and also says he sent the engine off to Moss about 2 years ago for rebuild I think its fairly safe to assume not long! So a we have a dissy that might have worked a bit on a shagged 2.5PI engine, that has now been fitted to an a engine rebuilt to unknown spec by Moss, but one would have to guess if your spending that sort of money having an engine built for your TR6 you ain't going to specify a cooking 2.5PI saloon spec (would you?).

 

The history of this dissy since July when Morten was first trying to start this car in his original thread is a bit like the 10 million dollar man "we can rebuild him" its been converted to pertronix and back again, its been shorted out and blown the condenser,its had multiple points sets fitted, its had the internal wiring changed, its had the base plate on and off to check the mechanical advance and we don't know what else. About the only think we know is that at some point in the past month the engine has run for a bit but again how well we don't know.

 

So all in all we have more unknowns than knowns, about the only thing we seem to have photographic evidence of is that for some strange reason when the points are opening the rotor isn't advanced enough, and that Morten's base plate is at an angle far in advance of any other retard 22D6 that I have or I can find pictures of.

 

Is anyone saying Martin is responsible for the current state of the Dissy? I don't think so.

 

Alan

[MortenHoyseth]

I'm sure that Martin did nothing wrong. Both his work and communication with him is great! Just mentioned him (well, the sticker is visible on the pictures) to say that the dizzy is professionally rebuilt earlier. I'm pretty sure that it is all due to something I done.

1) The distributor was running on the 2.5 PI's high lift cam (unknown spec) just fine - after I got it back from Martin. (Before Moss rebuild)

2) Martin set up the distributor for the specs of the rebuild. Its a stage 2 head with a sprint 90 camshaft (http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/media/pdf/6_cylinder_camshafts_instructions.pdf). And I got the engine running for a short period, before other areas took focus (battery, electrical system, ground, sync of the butterflies, new starter engine and alt. And the optimistic fitting of the PerTronix Ignitor without the system running well initially.

So - I'm sure I did something wrong - I am the amateur here, but very keen on getting things right and understand how and why and what And also impressed by all the knowledge you people have and the willing to help!

Edited August 19, 2016 by MortenHoyseth