oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Where is the points plate pin in relation to the casing in your disy? (engine off) If its same as Mortens then its not the disy, as yours works. I thought the cam timing had been checked? Morten's is in the wrong place too advanced compared to my dissy or any similar ones. I think I may have tracked down a US thread with some having exactly the same problem wit the same retard dizzy Its a fairly long thread, but not as long as this as nobody quite gets their head around advance and retard http://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?2,1358110,page=1 You need about page 3 before they get it right I'm not saying what specifically is causing your mis-indexed distributor rotor. I am saying that the rotor is not indexed properly and this very likely the main reason you are getting a low RPM misfire. It is entirely possible that the carb synchronization and mixture settings are not correct either but I steadfastly maintian the belief that the rotor indexing is the main culprit. Typically when I have encountered the symptoms you describe it was because the vacuum unit is not holding the breaker plate in the correct orientation with respect to the rubbing block on the points. Most often, the vacuum unit is the cause. Not always, however. I understand why it sounds like I am accusing your vacuum unit to be the problem. It's a very confusing issue, this rotor indexing thing. Just to make it even more complicated, I have come across LUCAS points in the past couple of years that alter the rotor indexing from stock and cause the same symptoms you are experiencing. Forever, there have been aftermarket points for these cars that do the same thing, by altering the rotor indexing. Only recently have I come across aftermarket distributors made specifically so the indexing can be accurately adjusted for optimum results but non that will fit these cars. I have to admit, I had not noticed that you disconnected the actuating arm and swung the breaker plate all the way counter-clockwise. In other words, in the fully retarded position. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) Morten's is in the wrong place too advanced compared to my dissy or any similar ones. I think I may have tracked down a US thread with some having exactly the same problem wit the same retard dizzy Its a fairly long thread, but not as long as this as nobody quite gets their head around advance and retard http://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?2,1358110,page=1 You need about page 3 before they get it right I'm not saying what specifically is causing your mis-indexed distributor rotor. I am saying that the rotor is not indexed properly and this very likely the main reason you are getting a low RPM misfire. It is entirely possible that the carb synchronization and mixture settings are not correct either but I steadfastly maintian the belief that the rotor indexing is the main culprit. Typically when I have encountered the symptoms you describe it was because the vacuum unit is not holding the breaker plate in the correct orientation with respect to the rubbing block on the points. Most often, the vacuum unit is the cause. Not always, however. I understand why it sounds like I am accusing your vacuum unit to be the problem. It's a very confusing issue, this rotor indexing thing. Just to make it even more complicated, I have come across LUCAS points in the past couple of years that alter the rotor indexing from stock and cause the same symptoms you are experiencing. Forever, there have been aftermarket points for these cars that do the same thing, by altering the rotor indexing. Only recently have I come across aftermarket distributors made specifically so the indexing can be accurately adjusted for optimum results but non that will fit these cars. I have to admit, I had not noticed that you disconnected the actuating arm and swung the breaker plate all the way counter-clockwise. In other words, in the fully retarded position. Alan, As yours works without the vac capsule operating then I cant see any problem with Morten fixing his plate with the pin in the same position as yours. He doesnt need vac advance for the PI. So a fixed points plate will be fine. (And less to go wrong too). A photo of an unmolested PI disy on points would be ideal for determining where to fix the plate- anyone got one??? I think Neil has dispelled worries about the the camshaft - its timed OK. Reading your quote: good to see the thread covered the 'wrong points' ( Luc*s ) causing rotor mismatch earlier. An onlooker might have found that useful. Peter Edited August 19, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 You are all making a mountain out of a molehill . god dam if i was in Norway it would be running in under 30 Min's Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 god dam if i was in Norway it would be running in under 30 Min's I wondered if anyone was looking at easyjet timetables Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Neil, it probably would. And to pick you up on that, if you're keen on a visit to Norway (I live 10 min drive from int. airport with flights to sevral places in UK), I'll be more than happy to pay for both flight and hotel Honestly!Anyway - I've loosley fitted the pedestal back on. Nomatter what I can't find any way to adjust the relationship between the dizzy cam (causing the point opening) and the rotor, than to rotate the plate. Spoke briefly to Martin J. and from the pictures I sent, he thought it looked right, but was happy to take a look at it (sending the dizzy over). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Morten Thanks for the photos now we know which one it is. Can you look at the cap, are the plug lead contacts on the inside equally spaced by the notch close to the Distributor Doctor label on the dizy body, and will be the same on the other side where the U cutout is, I'm sure there is more than one part number for the caps. I still think we need to know the relation between the drive dog at the bottom of the dizy to the rotor arm position, picture in the Brown manual. Also when you have timed the dizy to #1 firing what position is the rotor arm in? John John, Only one cap listed by Rimmers. Curiously two points plates... Agree with the drive gear being perhaps one cog out. Thats not been checked. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) Neil, it probably would. And to pick you up on that, if you're keen on a visit to Norway (I live 10 min drive from int. airport with flights to sevral places in UK), I'll be more than happy to pay for both flight and hotel Honestly! Anyway - I've loosley fitted the pedestal back on. Nomatter what I can't find any way to adjust the relationship between the dizzy cam (causing the point opening) and the rotor, than to rotate the plate. Spoke briefly to Martin J. and from the pictures I sent, he thought it looked right, but was happy to take a look at it (sending the dizzy over). Morten, Insert the disy drive gear one cog anticlockwise from where it is when you remove it. It will not easily drop in because the oil pump dog will fight it. IIRC a long screwdriver can turn the oil pump a fraction to suit. This will bring the rotor around 1/14 th of 360 deg or 25 deg anticlockwise, which is what you want to cure # 62, where you discovered the fault: "When the engine is at 12 dgr BTDC, and the point in the dizzy is just about to open (trigger-point of the bulb test - and I've done it right this time, Peter ), the rotor has not reached contact point for #1 inside the cap. It is actually half way between #4 (just left) and #1 (approaching). That can't be right? OR you can fix the points plate a simialr anticlock-wise angle, using your inspection cap to align the rotor and cap contact. The main worry I had about doing the above was because there might have been a camshaft timing fault, but Neil showed you that was not the case. Peter Edited August 19, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) The oil pump drive plays a small part in the setup, but yes that is what is part of the timing Edited August 19, 2016 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MortenHoyseth Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Peter, believe I've tried that - rotating the oil pump and fitting the distr drive. But it does not matter, as far as I can understand, and when fitting the distributor, both rotor and rotor cam will be changed the same amount. So just moving the problem a few degrees. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Peter, believe I've tried that - rotating the oil pump and fitting the distr drive. But it does not matter, as far as I can understand, and when fitting the distributor, both rotor and rotor cam will be changed the same amount. So just moving the problem a few degrees. It does Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) Peter, believe I've tried that - rotating the oil pump and fitting the distr drive. But it does not matter, as far as I can understand, and when fitting the distributor, both rotor and rotor cam will be changed the same amount. So just moving the problem a few degrees. Try again. Moving one cog in the drive gear engagement with the cam gear must move the rotor the same, about 25 deg. And Neil agrees, to my great relief. Peter Edited August 19, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Beat me to it! Anyway the dissy is going back for check over, lets see what its like when it comes back. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 And Neil agrees, to my great relief. Peter Unless I'm being stupid I think he was agreeing with Morten! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Unless I'm being stupid I think he was agreeing with Morten! Morten: " Its does not matter" Neil: " It does" thats my interpretation. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Morten said "both rotor and rotor cam will be changed the same amount. So just moving the problem a few degrees." Ok one last attempt, if you move the drive gear around 1 tooth anti clockwise, it rotates the dissy shaft anticlock wise the same number of degrees, the cam and rotor are fixed on the shaft so they are now the same number of degrees advanced, the points run on the cam, the points now open the same number of degrees sooner, net effect the spark occurs when the rotor is in the same place. Mortens problem isn't where the dam rotor is, its where the points set are in relation to the body of the dissy and thus the fixed unmoveable position of the contacts in the cap is, retard the position of the points and they will then open magically when the rotor is in the correct place. Alan Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 OK only because I can be anal, my Canadian work colleagues has gone off-line to watch Golf!, and I'm fed up with this issue. I have just been to the work shop removed a vacuum "advance" capsule from an old dissy, the actuating spring just screws into the back of the capsule, I then compared the spring length with one on a retard capsule its about 1/4" longer. Screw an advance capsule spring into a retard capsule and hey presto it pushes the points contact plate into almost exactly the same position that Mortens is, way too far advanced. Its an easy mistake to make, you'd be hard pressed to notice when assembling a vacuum capsule that the spring you were screwing in was a bit longer, the vacuum capsule will still fit in a retard distributor and the spring will hook over the pin on the contact plate without problems, and you would have to be eagle eyed to spot that the contact plate was further rotated than it should be. The interesting thing is that if you fitted the distributor to a car that actually used the retard vacuum capsule you would actually get away with having a longer spring as lets say you static time to 10 BTDC, the contact plate would actually be too advanced when the points break, but actually as you are timing when the points break its actually the cam and rotor that are not advanced enough towards the #1 contact in the cap, but start the engine and the vacuum retard immediately pulls the contacts back so the rotor is much more advanced to #1 in the cap when the spark is triggered, and if you check your timing with a strobe everything appears perfect. Now as you increase revs the vacuum retard starts coming off i.e. we get advancement from this effect up to a max of 14 deg back to 10 BTDC, which is moving the rotor back away from #1, but at the same time we have mechanical advance coming in which is moving the rotor back in again, provided the mechanical advance is greater than the vacuum retard then the rotor will stay in a good position relative to the #1 contact in the cap and everything runs sweetly. Fit the distributor with an over long spring to a car where the retard vac isn't hooked up, and you get what Mortens got. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) Alan, I now think I agree. I was wrong about the cog. Even if Morten recogs the drive the points will still too far ahead of the contact patch to allows the spark to hit it. ( excpet when the vacuum is connected) Its the same as having a set of points that are too long as in the pdf you posted earlier. Recogging would bring the rotor into alignment (as it must), but not the spark. It is the points-to-capcontact separation thats crucial. So, from your spring measurement, if the pin is moved about 1/4 inch anticlockwise the points should be in about the same position in relation to the casing- and hence cap contacts - as on a PI disy. We need a photo of a PI disy. Just as confirmation. Peter Edited August 19, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 - you then rotate the disy such that the points open at 12BTDC on the next lobe around. Now we get the spark with the rotor overlapping the contact. Peter if that was true, you could just rotate the dizzy and move the plug leads around 1 and problem would be solved, you can't! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Peter if that was true, you could just rotate the dizzy and move the plug leads around 1 and problem would be solved, you can't! Correct If martin says the dizzy is right but Morten is sending it back there is no point in this debate going on,it is as i said a timing issue,we will see.Now not cam. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Peter if that was true, you could just rotate the dizzy and move the plug leads around 1 and problem would be solved, you can't! Ive edited out that post it was wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Correct If martin says the dizzy is right but Morten is sending it back there is no point in this debate going on,it is as i said a timing issue,we will see.Now not cam. I agree, unless severely provoked, I'll hold my council and tongue, until Morten gets the dissy back. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) My Haynes manual dated 1974 has a photo of the disy with vac adv capsule, so PI type. The points plate pin, which anchors the v/a capsule spring, is aligned with the lug on the casing that locates the cap. To be more precise: the centre of the disy shaft, the pin and the right face of the lug are aligned. By 'right ' I mean the side of the lug away from the v/a capsule. Peter Edited August 19, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Pop that in the bin Peter as there are so many incorrect Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldtuckunder Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I agree, Morten needs his dissy setting correctly, what may be correct for one model may be inappropriate for another. Morten, I don't know what turn around time you are looking at, but if you are in a hurry to get the car running, I have a spare new electronic dissy here that I have never got around to trying, if you pay the postage you are welcome to borrow. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blue cedar Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Morten, during the lull, whilst the dissy is in the post to Martin. Don't forget the flowers and chocolates for Mrs H. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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