Peter Cobbold Posted May 29, 2014 Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Well yes it was. I'd just quickly jacked it up on the chassis, not that it droops much. The whole suspension is suspect as the rubber stops hardly clear. The springs that came with the car/wreck may have been the wrong ones. I was going to sort that out at a later date. Couldn't be that that's causing the prob could it? Bob Cant see drooping wheels giving the locking-up, but vibration - well.... maybe. BTW dont drive it in earnest unitl you are sure the bumpstops don't contact the chassi in bends. Once the wheel/chassis contact is solid all the cornering force goes onto that tyre and the spin can be too rapid to catch. Been there, twice - on tracks. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted May 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Peter, It's just occurred to me about the vibration/oscillations. Among the many useless things that came with this car were the swinging arm shockers, they weren't completely shot but not far off and I doubt if they will pass an MOT. I only fitted them to enable me to get the car mobile and see if everything fits. I've been attacking the solenoid. It will work but reluctantly. I fitted a very short and weak spring inside the solenoid to help make it return and removed the gaiter which it kept fouling. It works now but I don't know if there's enough travel in it for it to operate, and I'm reluctant to try it because of the oscillations when the wheels are in the air. I have the same problem front and rear with the suspension as regards the stops. The springs are the correct unloaded length but I think they are too strong and I have no way of testing them. I've got my doubts that they came from this car, maybe a Triumph 2500 saloon ! BTW? What's that? You may be gathering that this is a wreck. It was, and my idea is to get it back to some sort of driveable car before fetteling the problems out of it. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted May 29, 2014 Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Bob, By The Way !! There are a lot of stiffer aftermarket springs available, but mostly shorter to lower ride height at same time. If the shockers dont work then any up/down motion of the drive shaft will be free to shake. Take the wheels off ? - that will reduce the mass oscillating. That 18" motion, wheels on the road. Is that either way? so 36inch in total? about a half turn of a road tyre? Could there be something 'rubbbery' snagging when the wheels are on the road, but not when they are drooping in the air? The trailing arms will be flatter on the road than when drooped. I wondering about the drive shafts..chassis... Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted May 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Peter, No about 1/4 turn of the wheel each way, The wheel has approx 6' circumference, 2' dia. I'll check the drive shafts tomorrow, but if they're are free when drooped I can't see how they are going to catch on anything when on the road, I'll check. There's no actual bang or thump when it stops. The picture shows the state it was in when bought Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted May 29, 2014 Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Bob Lots of work getting that rebuilt. In the '70s that would have been a scrapper! I'm stumped. Cant think what it can be. Agree, if wheels are free drooped the shafts cant be stuck with the wheels down. But check its not a tyre hitting something, wheels on road You could jack the chassis up, then jack under the trailing arm so the weight is jsut on the springs, but now with tyres off contact with the road. So the geometry similar to tyres on road. Can you turn them by hand? Is it possible to switch the engine off after it has 'wound up' and see if you can hear the reversal of whatever is winding up? Maybe invite your local TRR members around to see if they can spot something? That stiff gearbox .... out of my depth there, never stripped one myself. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Could the 'winding up'/'wedging' be happening in the clutch driven-plate's cush-drive springs? They would need the transmission to exert torque to be compressed - that fits the symptoms. And I guess once the clutch was actuated they'd spring back to normal - that fits. And they'd act the same wether in forward or reverse gear - that fits. Might somehow explain the difficult gear change if the driven plate was not quite right - 'spinning plate'. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graeme Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) Bob, Did you confirm that the clutch plate was installed correctly. One side is marked 'flywheel side'. This problem seems to me to be clutch related. Cheers Graeme Edited May 30, 2014 by graeme Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted May 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Graeme, I'm pretty sure it was put in correctly. From memory I don't think it is possible to assemble it the wrong way round and get it to work. Bob Could the 'winding up'/'wedging' be happening in the clutch driven-plate's cush-drive springs? They would need the transmission to exert torque to be compressed - that fits the symptoms. And I guess once the clutch was actuated they'd spring back to normal - that fits. And they'd act the same wether in forward or reverse gear - that fits. Might somehow explain the difficult gear change if the driven plate was not quite right - 'spinning plate'. Peter Peter, The idea of the clutch springs is to eliminate snatching I believe. This wedging/stopping will happen with the clutch depressed so long as it is rolling, so I wouldn't think the clutch/springs are at fault. I admit I'm inclined to touch the brakes to stop the speed from increasing My next experiments are :- 1) to remove the brake shoes, then try it. That way it will eliminate the brakes. Not nice to drive anything with no brakes even at very low speed. Unfortunately I have a slight slope going in to the garage so I can't engage drive and leave it engaged, I have to dip the clutch. 2) to remove the wheels and run it in gear, eliminating some of the rotating mass to see if the oscillation/vibration is reduced. Bob Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Bob If you have to touch the brakes to stop it doesnt that suggest they are working normally? I dont think we have elimnated the clutch. Depressingthe pedal may not be stopping the driven plate from being driven - 'spinning plate' is when the clutch cannt be disengaged with the pedal. "This wedging/stopping will happen with the clutch depressed so long as it is rolling, so I wouldn't think the clutch/springs are at fault. I admit I'm inclined to touch the brakes to stop the speed from increasing" So if its rolling downhill, no braking by you, does it lock up when: gearbox is in neutral? or only if its in gear? with engine running at tickover or engine off? Any damp in garage? -enough to rust driven plate to flywheel? was the cltcuh wedged open during storage? or is it freshly assembled? Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted May 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Peter, Yes the brakes work, but I'm wondering if they may be coming on when rolling. Anyway it won't take much doing to wind them back so they're totally free. If the clutch wasn't working properly then it would crunch trying to get in to gear. It also stops the drive when the clutch is depressed. It locks up when in gear with clutch pedal depressed. Don't have time to put it in neutral it only move about 18" before it happens. With help I'll see if it does it with the engine on & off, clutch depressed and pushed. Like any garage it is a bit damp ( no heating) but everything is reasonably freshly assembled. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) Bob, I think the clutch might not like torque from turning wheels on road. Getting it into gear doesnt put any much torque on the clutch. Likewise stopping the drive with wheels off ground, clutch not experiencing much torque- not compared with wheels on road and a ton rolling. Does it still lock up rolling downhill with gearbox in neutral? If it does that eliminates clutch....I think. Agree, not likely to be rust - mine took a year in mildly damp garage to seize on. And it would be impossible to get into gear engine running. Peter Edited May 30, 2014 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 I've had one one of these transmissions right down to the last washer. I think this may be a cage failure on a roller bearing. It gets by when rolling easy but goes sideways when loaded. On mine the gbox input bearing was effectively in failure and the OD tail-shaft bearings not far behind. I've always worried that it would be quite easy to bend the gbox input shaft, particularly the spigot when struggling to align/fit the gbox. Did you you a clutch aligning tool? Don't suppose you forgot the spigot bush? The thrust bearing that operates the OD is really thin for the work it does. But your OD engage/disengage seems OK. Did you do anything with the layshaft? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted May 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Alan, Most of the bearings were renewed along with the layshaft, which was worn. I had never done a gearbox before but I knew how they worked, which is more than I can say for the o/d unit. However there's plenty of info on the net. Unfortunately not about this problem. I might give it a rest for a couple of days and try and work my mind around it. Bob Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 How did you make sure the layshaft rollers did not drop out of line when you feed the shaft through? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted May 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Unless they are correctly positioned you can't feed the shaft through. It's a long time ago since I did all this. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 There is a kind of layshaft bearing where the rollers are loose. That is they are not fixed in the cage (some of them retain the rollers). When the shaft comes through they can flick out and escape. I'm looking for things that can go out of line when driving but are OK on free running. In the first post you say that its hard to get out of gear. But we think the clutch works OK. To hold in gear there needs to torque load held by the input shaft which would normally be freed by the clutch. This means the layshaft or input shaft is locking. Could you have debris in the spigot bearing between the input shaft and the main-shaft? All these comments about bearings apply to the diff also. But I can't see how this would make it hard to get out of gear. This won't cheer you up BUT sometimes when you cannot find a fault that explains all the observed facts it means that there are actually TWO faults. Things like this always generate symptoms that seem to make no sense. You must then put the smaller symptoms from your mind and concentrate on the most obvious easy to find fault and then work down into the smaller stuff. Al. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
reginald Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Hi I had a problem after fitting my rebuilt gear box, As I reversed out of the drive there was a loud shuddering noise and the car stalled, I thought it was the gear box or clutch but traced it the rear o/s brake shoes binding, I thougt it would be a sticking piston, but on inspection found brake dust had gathered on the shoe surface, and I think due to me cleaning the wheels with a hose pipe the water had set the dust like a paste causing the shoes to stick & bind I had trouble getting the drum of a good clean & degrease of brake shoes & problem solved may worth looking at. Regards Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted June 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Back to this problem. I've managed to get the engine to run smoothly now which has helped to to isolate the problems. 1) There is no problem with the brakes front or rear. I have freed the rear adjuster right back and front spin freely. 2) The clutch engages and disengages freely. 3) With one wheel off the ground the wheel turns freely under power, although noisy with slack in the train. 4) There is slack in the back axle somewhere as I can feel it by rotating the wheel slightly, about 0.5" at the tyre tread. Not sure if this normal or not. 5) When rotating the prop shaft by hand, at the rear of g/box, about 1 revolution VERY slight resistance/stiffness is felt, as if something maybe out of line. 6) When reverse and 4th gears are selected, power put through the train then substantial resistance encountered to take out of gear and in to neutral with clutch depressed. All ok in all other gears. 7) The wedging/stopping is only present in neutral. I drove it for about 6 - 8ft without a problem in both directions. If the clutch is depressed after motion initiated then I get the problem after about 18". It can then be moved again 18" in either direction. I haven't got the room to to try driving it for a distance then letting it coast with the clutch depressed. 8) The car can be pushed out of gear in either direction without a problem. Anyone got any ideas ? Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Suggests to me that the act of pressing the clutch triggers the wedging. Once the clutch has mated with the flywheel it works OK, so do the gearbox and axle. But the clutch release action feels normal. Yet 6 suggests a spinning plate condition in the clutch. So....something to do with the clutch. Perhaps when pressing the pedal the pressure plate collides with the release bearing yoke??? Is the release bearing swivelling properly? Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted June 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yes it's a possibility maybe. I suppose I'm searching for the impossible, the known cure, so that I know which part to work on. Just a thought, do you think there could be too much travel on the clutch and is pushing the fingers too far in. I made an adjustable push rod. The clutch release bearing is noisy despite replacing it with another new one, the first one was dry and noisy before fitting. The one I fitted appeared to be ok prior to fitting. At the moment it comes up quite a way from the floor before biting. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Bob, There were two clutch sources - Laycock and Borg & Beck. Could you have a bitsa? I dont know if the driven plates can be interchanged but someone will. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted June 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Peter, I got the clutch from Moss's. I believe it was a Borg & Beck. I've just been reading Moss's catalogue about the clutch and two different length screws were used, not exactly sure why or what happens if you do use the wrong ones. Eventually I'm going to have to bite the bullet and take the box out. Not an easy job as it comes out through the cabin. Luckily I haven't done all the trim yet and only the drivers seat is fitted. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Peter, I got the clutch from Moss's. I believe it was a Borg & Beck. I've just been reading Moss's catalogue about the clutch and two different length screws were used, not exactly sure why or what happens if you do use the wrong ones. Eventually I'm going to have to bite the bullet and take the box out. Not an easy job as it comes out through the cabin. Luckily I haven't done all the trim yet and only the drivers seat is fitted. Bob Bob, Its not too bad a job - better than it going out downwards. Trolley jack under it to helps manoevering. Its OK single-handed. Hope it is the clutch, fingers crossed. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted June 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Peter, Prior to taking the g/box out I think I'll just try altering the clutch slave push rod length. By shortening it slightly it should reduce the amount of clutch movement. It might just be that. Wishful thinking maybe ! Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flyer295 Posted June 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 I've been able to test it properly now hat the engine is working as it should. I've slackened the push rod off and that has quietened the thrust bearing. It will move as it should in gear 1st or reverse so long as the car is moving with gears engaged. As soon as I depress the clutch and freewheel with it in gear then it locks up. It sounds like clutch but what would be wrong in there to cause this? Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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