billg Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 I've just fitted a Marchal SEV rally roof lamp to my TR3A. I've also mounted two Marchal spots on the front Badge bar, as they were often fitted on Triumphs by privateers, the factory.being locked into Lusas I presume. A two tone ( illegal!) Marchal air horn completes the Marchal Set up. The car is entered for the Monte Carlo start event, but hope to get to Monaco itself in 2015. I bought this roof lamp on EB for a modest price and have refurbished it to nearly new condition for a fraction of the cost of a Lucas RMS576 lamp which are both hard to find and very expensive, even the repro ones. Were roof lamps used on TR2's and 3's when new? Or did they only come in with TR3A's I've seen some early SAAB's with them pre-dating Triumph's use of them? So did the Swedes do this first? Regards Bill G @ NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 Bill I'm pretty sure you won't get away with Marchal lights, although you are quite correct that at least one privateer car ran on the Mille with non Lucas lights in 1955. Usually the scrutineering are pretty stiff on features like this that can be seen readily. I have my doubts about the roof light on all but a TR3a, so perhaps they ran in 1957 on the Mille ? That's you're only possibility I think. I have pictures of a TR2 from 1956 running such a LUCAS RMS 576 lamp on the Liege. I suggest you refer to the organisers or an entrant who has recently run a TR2 as it would be a shame to turn up and end up stripping all the bits off. Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Robson Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 Memory, and careful research into period pix, tells me that roof-mounted spot lights were almost certainly not used on 'works' cars until 1958. Certainly, pictures of the TRW cars on the 1957 Liege show that no roof lights were fitted, and there were none on the 1956 team cars either. You are right, too, that at this time the 'works' Triumphs were totally locked in to using Lucas electrics. It wasn't just that there were commercial considerations, but that they were provided F.O.C .... Hon. Pres. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted December 29, 2013 Report Share Posted December 29, 2013 Thanks Graham ! Useful to have a good library indeed - the TR2 pic I have must be a privateer on the liege in 56 ? Did Lucas make the RMS 576 before 1957 ? I see that the VRW cars used them, and UYM 6 had one fitted from new in December 57. Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Robson Posted December 29, 2013 Report Share Posted December 29, 2013 Here's a rather long-winded bit of research. Having looked at THE AUTOCAR Motor Show issues for October 1957, I see that : 'The WFT 576 and WLR 576 fog and long-range driving lamps make their first appearance at the Show. They are versions of the existing ones, but with back fixings for very full-fronted cars...' The original pedestal-mounting types of 576 had been shown as prototypes a year earlier than that. I was just starting to go rallying (as a co-driver) at that time, and recall that the back-fixing 576s were very useful for fitting to cars which didn't have sturdy front bumpers (three years down the line, my first Mini was treated to a pair which, with a bit if judicious re-wiring, took the place of the existing turn indicators, and most of us law-breaking rally types also used WFT 576 lamps as powerful reverse lamps too !) This (late 1957) was the exact same period in which the RMS 576 lamp was introduced for use as a swivellable roof lamp. Several 'works' teams - not only Standard-Triumph, but BMC, Sunbeam and Ford - started using them in the 1958 season. Hon. Pres. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I can confirm that K Richardsons VHP529 ( an early 3A TS23635 O) had an RMS 573 lamp fitted from new. It was built on Nov 5th and registered on 11 Nov 1957 and was promptly used to Recce the Monte Carlo Rally (with Annie Soisbault.) I seem to remember that Ken Ricahrdson was somehow involved in the design of the RMS576 but where I cant recall...perhaps one of F Reydellet books? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Hi there Some interesting detail from contributors . I've seen period Saab rally cars with roof lamps which predate the Lucas version , but need to double check the dates. It's true Works cars consistently used Lucas products but many privateers on lots of different rallies, with UK reg cars or continental cars used Marchal. My car is a 1959 TR3A so my Marchal period bits( some NOS) are eligible fittings but my R&P is not! For higher order events which I doubt I could afford to enter! Just fitted two Lucas screen heaters to aid de misting in rainy Scotland, those are definitely period fittings , but the modern heater with 2 speed fan in the passenger footwell may not be. Will post car pics after the Monte Carlo Glasgow event and our night rally to Loch Lomond. Regards Bill G@ NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 I've attached two pics, one of the roof lamp and one Showing the Lucas screen heater tucked in behind The aeroscreens which channel the hot air from The main heater. Works cars ran with a strip of Perspex doing the same function and also incorporating the Lucas Screen heaters. Even Works Minis I believe used Perspex strip and screen heaters Till the pukka heated front and rear laminated screens were Invented in the mid sixties... But Graham will know exactly. Annie Soisbault used Marchal lamps on her own TR. Plus SRW 993 appears to wearing Marchal spots on p66 of the Works Triumps. Regards Bill G@ NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Robson Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) A puzzle. There is no SRW 993 on p66 of WORKS TRIUMPHS - and SRW 993 was not a works Triumph TR3 anyway. Gatsonides's SRW 410 may have used Marchal lamps on that French Alpine - but Gatso was well-known for altering the spec. of his cars after he collected them from the factory ! Heated windscreens were a later-1960s thing. I distinctly remember being given one for my Vauxhall Victor 2000 (don't laugh - really) staff car at AUTOCAR in 1968, as a prototype from, I believe, Triplex, and being very impressed .... The very first heated screens had a sort-of gold metal insert in layers of glass, and cut down on visibility quite significantly. Hon. Pres. Edited January 18, 2014 by Graham Robson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Sorry Graham, It was p66 on Bill Piggots book Triumph. By Name Triumph by Nature. I worked on heated window design in the 1960's at Barr& Stroud in Glasgow, but they were for RN submarine periscope windows! At the Time this was before Rover started to fit the first fine wire systems in rear windows and before the concept of screen printing resistive lines on rear screens. At the time you will remember folk bought plastic panels for rear screens as a kind of cheap secondary glazing. I designed and built an accessory panel which was a sheet of Melinex with the thin wires embedded in it. But it was too expensive to produce and it was not put into production as someone else then started screen printing the heating element onto a plastic sheet. Gatso 's own book is a great read and you can see all the gadgets he added to his various rally cars. Heated panels were available before the war as Cecil Kimber's VA saloon had one fitted. I have a pre-war panel which I restored but it must be 6v as when I tried it on my rear hard top window it started to melt the Perspex. This was a glass. Panel with a metal frame and 6 wires held onto to the screen with suckers. The best winter accessory I ever saw was on an HRG which had a heated towel rail on the dash for the passenger a bit like the TR grab handle but heated with hot water from the engine cooling system. Regards Bill G@ NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Hi Bill and Graham this photo of VHP529 on the Monte Recce in late 57 shows a few of these"works" fitted extras. Single Lucas Fog and Spots both 700's. Roof mounted RMS576 Pair of Lucas screen heaters in the front. Single screen heater in the middle of the rear hardtop screen These extra electrical items required the cars to be fitted with an uprated dynamo and also a completely different regulator the RB310. Original still fitted to the VHP529. This photo helps with dates it was taken on 9th December 1957 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) DKW made an appearance with a roof mounted something or other on the 57 Monte (3rd overall) I think. Cheers Dazzer Edited January 19, 2014 by Dazzer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 " a roof mounted something or other " Isn't that the key for winding up the supplementary clockwork motor for overtaking ? The top secret Iron Curse that wasn't finally revealed until long after the fall of the Iron Curtain ? Latterly resurfaced in F1, albeit in evolved format, as the Kinetic Energy Recovery System . . . . . Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Saab 93 's sported rally roof lamps in the 1955 Tulip Rally And I suggest that's where the Richardson Equipe , competing in their Standard 10s , with Gatso first got the idea. I don't think Lucas had a comparable Product at that time, so this lamp was either by Hella, Marchal Or other manufacturer See p58 Tome 4 by Reydellet. Regards Bill G @ NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Hi Alec… Now I understand what that things for in the glovebox Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Bill what is the feedback on the screen heaters do they make much of a difference? Regards Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Hi Iain It's been unseasonably warm and dry this week since I fitted and wired them in. They fit very snugly between the aeroscreens and the windscreen and I added some small strips of Perspex to help duct all the hot air from the dash vents. I leave for the start of the Monte run on Thursday morning. The short night navigation run goes to Luss on Loch Lomondside. It will be cold and dark on Thurs evening, but Friday looks like being torrential rain for the next 100 mile drive, so will let you know how they fare. At the moment they smell a bit like a new toaster! They were new old stock and all I had to do was replace the rubber suckers which had perished. Thanks for your interest Regards Bill G@NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Very best of luck! Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted January 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 1104 DZ acquitted itself very well on the 280 mile run To and from the Start point of this years Monte Carlo Historic Rally at Paisley. We had a night navigation run on hilly icy roads to Luss on Loch Lomond. The roof light and other spots were great And the newly installed demisting bits worked a treat Amazingly with some quite hard driving we managed to average 33mpg. The rally got quite a bit of media coverage and there were at least A dozen professional photographers snapping away. We got to chat to Paddy Hopkirk too as we went over the Launch ramp. He of course used an identical machine in the 1958 Rally 80 classics turned out. Regards Bill G@ NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) Pictures, or it didn't happen! There seems to be one Triumph in this year's RMC Historique, a Russian-entered 1967 TR4A. http://www.acm.mc/page-tab-histo.php?id_menu=5&id_sousmenu=27&lg=en The Club magazine just arrived in my mailbox, with as usual some terrific photos of last year's rallye. And hopefully the front desk is saving a few copies of the poster for my collection... Edited January 24, 2014 by Don H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted January 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) Bill's new Marchal SEV Rally Roof spotlight illuminates Paisley Abbey for the start of the 2014 Scottish start of the Monte Carlo Historic Rally. Car completed 282 miles on this trip over icy hills with NO problems and averaged 33mpg despite some hard driving. NOS Lucas screen heaters worked a treat and no steaming up despite torrential rain early on Friday. Featured in BBC Scotland's TV coverage too. Had a chat with Paddy Hopkirk on the Podium when he flagged us off ( To Luss) I asked how he liked the 1958 TR3A when he drove it in the 58 Monte, " bloody terrible in the snow!" was his reply. We did not get snow but we did get icy roads, but perhaps I shouldn't have passed the griiter! Great fun with the roof light at dark junctions . Reagrds Bill G @ NB PS my pics seem to rotate when I add them? why is this? Edited January 24, 2014 by billg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimcwestie Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Bill when I open your photo on the ipad they are round the right way. How very odd. Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Just found a reference to the Lucas RMS 576 in Autosport, Jan 3 1958, it implies that Lucas Competitiions department have just launched them.It states many Works Teams will be using them on the Monte at the end of the month. They certainly did! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 It looks likely then that Lucas copied one of their continental competitors possibly Marchal, Bosch or another make, as works SAAB's had roof lamps in the Tulip Rally of 1955 when they challenged Gatso in his works Standard 10. These lamps could not have been Lucas RMS lamps, which only first surfaced on 1958 TR3A's. See Reydellet book 4 P58 for the picture of 3cyl SAAB taking on a Standard 10 on the Zandvoort circuit as part of the 1955 Tulop Rally Regards Bill G@ NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billg Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 One of the most glamorous rally drivers ever, Greta Molander was a frequent entrant on the Monte Carlo Rally. In 1950, 1952, 1953 she drove a then rare SAAB 92 on this demanding rally sporting a roof mounted spotlight. She won a Coupes des Dames so must have been no mean driver. Prior to that many pre-war rally drivers opted for screen pillar mounted lamps. For some great reads try humfrey E symons pre-war book on the Monte and also SC Davis's Rallies and Trials. Regards Bill G@ NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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