Badfrog Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Does anybody know this product? An opinion? http://certechgels.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=52 Badfrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanG Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Bet they sell guaranteed hair restorer as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Brady Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Would you put very fine sand in your engine? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) There are others that make same claim: http://www.americantechnology.co.uk/testimonials-4-w.asp http://www.xado.co.uk/ They might give immediate improvement in ring sealing, but what about a few hundred miles later? And does it bugger up reboring etc? Oil seals? If I were trying to sell a smoky banger - maybe worth a try. Ceramic says silicates to me- so what happens to the stuff longer term? oxidation to silicon oxide = quartz..... Peter Edited November 20, 2013 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeF Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) Does anybody know this product? An opinion? http://certechgels.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=52 Badfrog I have some experience in a related area with repair adhesives and polymers. A number of the repair products are filled with ceramics. Local transport companies and the Motorsport (all round me) people were a significant part of the business. Never got involved with additives though, wasn’t aware of anyone using them – but to be fair wasn’t specifically looking. I checked the professional vehicle operators, these guys keep an accurate record of vehicle performance and costs, plotting them out so they can predict service costs, replacement times etc. If there were some easy way to reduce off road time and operating costs they would do it and plot the results and you would be able to see their documented findings on one of these web sites. This is a typical response. http://fleetowner.com/equipment/feature/oil_additives_pour_1108 This is testing a different product to your example, this one attempts to differentiate itself by being an engine treatment using advanced technology. Their claims are the same otherwise. This particular one claims to use technology developed in the Soviet Union during WW2 and has nano technology to help it develop a cermet coating which is incredibly smooth and hard. As we know nano particles are the latest red-hot whiz in the materials world and hold out all sorts of possibilities. Comments Well nano technology is possible even though no one knew what nano articles were in those days. It has only recently become possible to see them and properly understand them. Possibly they found something that worked and later worked out it was Nano. Rather like the rainbow hues on ancient pottery and carbon black (which both actually use properties of nano particles). The bit on Soviet technology made me smile; it’s very similar to the one about the tin in your petrol tank. There is a thread on this on another forum which you might care to flip through, saves rehearsing the same back and forth here. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1229173 Finally it seems to me that if the claims made were to be true the product could mess up the shell bearings. The product is claimed to fill in micro cracks in the metal surface and build a hard [wear free] smooth [low friction] surface. Shell bearings use metal alloys which have a mix of hard and soft components which form “intermetallics”. These alloys form micro cracks at the interfaces and these trap a film of oil on the surface which gives them their lubricating properties. Shell bearings were a major development in aircraft just before and during WW2, but in the West. They do work – as we know. BTW: The company I was involved with was called Belzona www.belzona.co.uk I am not advocating their products here - they only sell to industry - but it is interesting to compare their website with those of the additive people. Rather different. Mike Edited November 20, 2013 by MikeF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 My BS meter gets pretty high on this one. "With a 100% safety factor over 10 years.." What the H. does that mean? Peter, did you see a discussion of the chemistry someplace that I missed? I didn't see references to silicates or silica, and I don't know exactly what kind of material it is. FWIW, I think converting a silicate into quartz ain't gonna be easy, and much depends on the particle size of any additive. We'd need to review reaction pathways there. Silicates *are* used in most of our engines, as far as I know, as part of the anticorrosion system in coolants. Remember Slick 50? What ever happened to that product? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Hi Don, Slick 50 is still around. Not sure why. Do a google and up it comes. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Badfrog Posted November 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Thanks to all, especially MikeF for in depth response. I was quite negative myself, but without serious arguments. Now it's a done topic. Badfrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 My BS meter gets pretty high on this one. "With a 100% safety factor over 10 years.." What the H. does that mean? Peter, did you see a discussion of the chemistry someplace that I missed? I didn't see references to silicates or silica, and I don't know exactly what kind of material it is. FWIW, I think converting a silicate into quartz ain't gonna be easy, and much depends on the particle size of any additive. We'd need to review reaction pathways there. Silicates *are* used in most of our engines, as far as I know, as part of the anticorrosion system in coolants. Remember Slick 50? What ever happened to that product? Don, Not sure about Badfrog's stuff but the CerMet in Xado is a Tin chloride and clay ground up ( presumably very small to qualify as nanotech !!): http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,304,020.PN.&OS=PN/7,304,020&RS=PN/7,304,020 The clay is montmorillonite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montmorillonite which contains silicon: " chemically it is hydrated sodium calcium aluminium magnesium silicate hydroxide (Na,Ca)0.33(Al,Mg)2(Si4O10)(OH)2·nH2O Xado claim a treated surface has high hardness: "XADO treatment creates a ceramic and metal surface, CERMET (ceramic / metal) that is harder and smoother than the original metal structure. CERMET also has a Rockwell rating of 320 (metal = 90; diamond = 420)" Tin wont produce that hardness surely?, must be the clay. I'm steering well clear of it. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeF Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) Xado claim a treated surface has high hardness: "XADO treatment creates a ceramic and metal surface, CERMET (ceramic / metal) that is harder and smoother than the original metal structure. CERMET also has a Rockwell rating of 320 (metal = 90; diamond = 420)" Tin wont produce that hardness surely?, must be the clay. I'm steering well clear of it. Peter It's all dimensionless assertions. To me they have strung a number of sentences together which use certain terms/words and then juxtaposed some unrelated sentences using the same terms/words with perhaps some numbers. Each is true on its own but the reader will read them as a whole and make inferences from what he thinks has been written. Yes Cermet can be very hard, heat and abrasion resistant and strong. But which Cermet, which metal has the Rockwell hardness quoted? What's the Rockwell hardness of the one somehow developed in their mixture? The insides of a petrol engine would seem to me to be too messy for the reactions they are claiming/suggesting. You probably would get some sort of slag stuff which would slip/form between or on the rings. This would self limit. The thing that has been bothering me about the user testimonials has just worked its way to the front of my brain: They mostly said my engine runs smoother etc.I can't be bothered to go back and check, but I don't remember any of the happy punters saying "My engine stopped smoking." "I got my car through its MOT on emissions without rebuilding engine." Mike MIke Edited November 20, 2013 by MikeF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
amclpreston Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Does anybody know this product? An opinion? http://certechgels.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=52 Badfrog Looks like a modern wheeze on a couple of old products.... Molyslip and Piston Seal..... At about 7 times the price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
amclpreston Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Looks like a modern wheeze on a couple of old products.... Molyslip ( molybdenum sulphide) and Piston Seal..... At about 7 times the price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Montmorillonite clays, including the (maybe slightly) more familiar bentonite clays, are part of the smectite clay family -- very soft, swelling clays often used as thickeners in systems like oilfield drilling muds. I do NOT like the idea of adding something like this to an engine. It sounds vaguely like a higher tech version of adding sawdust to the crankcase to quiet lifters or prevent smoking. Might work for a time, but does not fix the underlying problem. I'd be happy to learn different, but I'm in the run, don't walk, away camp... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Brady Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Remember Slick 50? What ever happened to that product? It all leaked out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Badfrog Posted November 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 I like the sawdust comparison. Topic closed as far as I am concerned. Thanks to all. Badfrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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