Lord Flashart Posted September 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 Jferg The bellows type is the type of thermostat that was originally fitted to these cars. It has a sleeve attached to it sonwhen it opens it blocks off the bypass port inside the thermostat housing, directing most of the flow through the radiator. I got mine on eBay, but I think Moss is supplying them as well. Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) The other thing that is new is now when revving with the rad cap off the water level rises and it overflows. I'm thinking I need to pull the head again as the level rising to me means the combustion gasses are pushing coolant around. Sounds normal - water expands as it gets hot. Hence the need for overflow pipes/bottles/headers. However, if it starts overflowing immediately with a cold system, then it probably is being pressurised, in which case I'd suspect head gasket (but I think you've ruled that out). One thing I'm 99% sure of is that the rad is not at fault. You could also try bypassing the heater to rule out any air locks in there. Don't just close the heater valve - connect the inlet and outlet (i.e. feed and return) pipes with a length of heater hose. (I've had this problem in the past, although not as bad as you seem to have it!). Final thought - where did you get the water pump? There are some around which are totally useless. Edited September 10, 2011 by BrianC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 Sounds normal - water expands as it gets hot. Hence the need for overflow pipes/bottles/headers. However, if it starts overflowing immediately with a cold system, then it probably is being pressurised, in which case I'd suspect head gasket (but I think you've ruled that out). One thing I'm 99% sure of is that the rad is not at fault. You could also try bypassing the heater to rule out any air locks in there. Don't just close the heater valve - connect the inlet and outlet (i.e. feed and return) pipes with a length of heater hose. (I've had this problem in the past, although not as bad as you seem to have it!). Final thought - where did you get the water pump? There are some around which are totally useless. Yep, I'm with Brian - as you already noticed off course, looking for non radiator related solutions. Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Edmond Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) I've been following this with interest, due years of a 4A running on and overheating. Never before encountered the notion of "sleeve type" thermostats. I've replaced the modern (bellows type??) one a few times with no effect, but it's obvious that when open it still blocks 50% or better of the flow area. Edmond, tell me more about a "sleeve thermostat". thanks, JFerg Jferg - here's the link. It was a last resort for me given I had tried pretty much everything and seems to have done the trick. Even the sodding pinking stopped. http://www.moss-euro...teIndexID=18572 Bloody hell...just noticed it's nearly 50% more expensive that when I bought mine a few months back from the same supplier. Bet some backstreet workshop in China or India is getting 50p a throw for making them Edited September 10, 2011 by Edmond Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 Simple test and ? does the bottom of the rad get hot? try it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 I went to an all Triumph meeting earlier this afternoon and mentioned your problem. Lots of inhaling air through the teeth, like the plumber does when you ask him how much is it will cost to replace the sink drain... First suggestion: are you really sure the fan is turning in the right direction? Second: yes, scale in the rad. Flushing isn't always helping. Third: -a new one- a blockage inside the engine. Did you try to open the tap on the RH side of the engine? Does the water flow in a steady stream after you have lifted the radiator cap? Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billy l Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 HOW MUCH???????, Gordon Bennet!!!! I got mine from Autojumble, new old stock £15 and I still see them, perhaps I should buy them and pass on. Cheers Bill. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lord Flashart Posted September 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 Cheers Guys The more I think about it I more I'm thinking it's head gasket. The water overflows instantly on revving the engine, cold of hot. I can't figure out why the rubber hose leading to the water pump would collapse with revs though. The water pump came from moss. I'll pull it off and have a good look at it but I'm sure fluid is circulating at the radiator is hot all the way top to bottom and the heater gets hot. When I open the drain valve on the side of the block water shoots out horizontally. Fan is definately correct as is the electric back up. The other thing that was me thinking head gasket again is the fact the even when starting from cold, the engine heats up very quickly. Frrom turning the key, it takes only a few seconds before the gauge starts rising and then only about a minute until it's almost in the red. I don't remember my TR3 getting warm that quickly. So I think I'll pull the water pump and probably the head to see what's going on. I'm resigned to the fact that I'm not driving the car again until the spring, so I might as well tear the thing to bits and get to the bottom of this. Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 So I think I'll pull the water pump and probably the head to see what's going on. I'm resigned to the fact that I'm not driving the car again until the spring, so I might as well tear the thing to bits and get to the bottom of this. That's the spirit! That's better than selling the car! I'm afraid I'm not an expert on head gaskets. I think it's best to take lots of pics and post them here, asking why F-ing the head gasket has gone again. Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 Fan is definately correct as is the electric back up. The other thing that was me thinking head gasket again is the fact the even when starting from cold, the engine heats up very quickly. Frrom turning the key, it takes only a few seconds before the gauge starts rising and then only about a minute until it's almost in the red. Firstly, I take it you have both mechanical and electric fan (like me), in which case: Double-check that they are actually both rotating in the correct directions. i.e. Not necessarily in the same direction, depending on make of electric fan, connection of wires, orientation of blades and whether it is front or rear mounted (pusher or puller, blower or sucker!). You will need a clear head to check this logically. Clutching at straws I know, but you wouldn't be the first to have an electric fan working the wrong way and the effect would be harder to detect with the mechanical fan also in place. Secondly, don't take the gauge reading as gospel - at best it only shows the temperature at the sensor. This is not necessarily the same as engine temperature, especially if you have a blockage or airlock. Maybe you could get hold of one of the multimeters that has a temperature sensor attachment. Wish I'd spent an extra fiver for this feature when I bought a new meter last year. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted September 10, 2011 Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 Jferg - here's the link. It was a last resort for me given I had tried pretty much everything and seems to have done the trick. Even the sodding pinking stopped. http://www.moss-euro...teIndexID=18572 Bloody hell...just noticed it's nearly 50% more expensive that when I bought mine a few months back from the same supplier. Bet some backstreet workshop in China or India is getting 50p a throw for making them Silghtly off-topic but perhaps relevant - I notice that Moss only offer the Summer version: Thermostat (bellows type) Note: summer (160°F, 74°C) Once you've solved the overheating problem, you may encounter its cousin, over-cooling. Why don't Moss supply the Winter version which opens at a higher temperature? [OK I know, there aren't many of us left driving our TRs all year round ] Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lord Flashart Posted September 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2011 At this point I'd love to have an over cooling problem! I don't think this is a gauge problem as I've put a different type of gauge from my frogeye sprite into the thermostat housing and this also shows overheating. The frog's gauge is a mechanical type like a TR3 so it's unlikely that they would both read the same unless the engine is overheating. Also the oil pressure drops with the temp rise, so again i think it's unlikely it's a false reading. My plan is to strip it all down. I'm fairly sure it's not the radiator so it's likely the head gasket. I'll be happy if it is as changing a head gasket is only an hours work and won't cost much. I'm going to get the head professionally crack tested and tested for flat again in case something has warped. I'll also check the liner heights again. They were all even at 5 thou when I fitted the new liners. I'm guessing that I've missed something or buggered something up when fitted the new liners and head gasket.\ I should get to the bottom of this without too much expenditure. Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Paul - Is your electric fan running the wrong direction ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TorontoTim Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Paul - based on your comments that your car warms up (overheats?) within about 2 minutes, I would say that it's not a radiator/fan problem. Under normal conditions the thermostat wouldn't open that quickly and so those parts of the circuit wouldn't be in play. I'd discount them. Also, I'm concerned by the collapsing hose. I don't know if you've replaced them recently but, assuming you haven't, I'd get nice new silicon ones - old hoses can break down inside and start to block circulation. I'm not sure it's relevant (see rad point, above) but you'd be surprised how 3 or 4 separate partial problems can add up to one big one. Nightmare to track down... My own 4 had a lot of overheating problems that were eventually sorted out with a combination of fixes (clean out the block, replace a partially crushed metal return pipe, head-gasket, sleeved thermostat). Keep going in a logical sequence, like you are, and you'll get there - I'm sure of it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lord Flashart Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) Cheers Tim, I agree, it gets hot so quickly I don't see how it's the rad. Initially I tested the point at which the thermostat opened and the engine got hot so quickly it was practically overheating before the 'stat opened. Even after the rad came into play, the engine continued to heat up quickly. I've now got a modern 'stat fitted with the workings removed so the rad is in play immediately. This made no difference to the rate at which the engine got hot. This has to be head gasket related. If it was the rad, the engine wouldn't be heating up so quickly before the 'stat opened. The rad gets hot all the way down and I can't find any cool spots, so water is circulating and the pump must be working to make the coolant circulate. Don, a mis-wired electric fan wouldn't cause this fault anyway. The car overheats when driving without the fan running. A reversed mechanical fan could, but both of my fans pull air through the rad in the correct direction. I'm pulling the head off in the morning. I'll post pics of what I find. I'm expecting to see the head gasket to show some evidence of leaking. Then it'll be an easy fix! The only thing I don't understand is the collapsing hose. The hoses on the engine are all brand new with less that 200 miles on them. It also didn't happen until after I'd removed and flushed the rad yesterday. Paul Edited September 11, 2011 by Lord Flashart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 The only thing I don't understand is the collapsing hose. The hoses on the engine are all brand new with less that 200 miles on them. It also didn't happen until after I'd removed and flushed the rad yesterday. Paul What did you use to flush the rad out with as if it was a powerful de-scaler then it may have attacked the inside of the hose. Some of the repro hoses around aren't of the best construction. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lord Flashart Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I only used water from a hose. I also had the rad off the car so the rubber hoses were not involved. Very strange! Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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