TR3A Changes at chassis 60000

[Norman D]

It is well documented that significant changes took place at chassis 60001 but is this number accurate as my car chassis 59599 ie 401 before the change point has all the attributes of the later cars ie raised hinge plinths, simplified floor etc .The car was registered Oct 59 559 AOE could some earlier chassis nos have slipped out with the new bits or is my car a bit of a 'wrong un' with a later body fitted. The brass body number is SP1740 and the engine noTS60350 which I think is original as it is in the green log book.Sadly I think I know the answer!

[angelfj]

It is well documented that significant changes took place at chassis 60001 but is this number accurate as my car chassis 59599 ie 401 before the change point has all the attributes of the later cars ie raised hinge plinths, simplified floor etc .The car was registered Oct 59 559 AOE could some earlier chassis nos have slipped out with the new bits or is my car a bit of a 'wrong un' with a later body fitted. The brass body number is SP1740 and the engine noTS60350 which I think is original as it is in the green log book.Sadly I think I know the answer!

 

 

Norman: "SP1740" doesn't sound like a correct body number. Body shells were produced by Mulliners who attached a brass identification tag to the bulkhead just above the battery box. These tags were made of brass and were embossed, not stamped. The ID consisted of a prefix, EB, followed by a series of five numbers. After the bodies were completed by Mulliners, they were painted their correct body color (including this brass tag) and then were trucked to Canley. At Canley, the bodies progressed down the line and were mated with the rolling chassis. Another brass ID tag was installed at the factory during final assembly. This tag was placed just below the Mulliners tag. Since the body was already painted, this tag should be natural brass finish.

 

read my article

[TR 2100]

It is well documented that significant changes took place at chassis 60001 but is this number accurate as my car chassis 59599 ie 401 before the change point has all the attributes of the later cars ie raised hinge plinths, simplified floor etc .The car was registered Oct 59 559 AOE could some earlier chassis nos have slipped out with the new bits or is my car a bit of a 'wrong un' with a later body fitted. The brass body number is SP1740 and the engine noTS60350 which I think is original as it is in the green log book.Sadly I think I know the answer!

 

The exact change points listed in the Parts Book are often approximate

and changes did not always come in 'cleanly'. i.e. you could find that

a car with later TS number than yours had the earlier body.

 

It's debatable whether the change was at commission number TS 60,001

or body number. Commission numbers and body numbers followed each

other in general terms but never the same.

Your body number is different to anything I've seen before so I can't give

any clue as to its meaning, but I don't see it as an indication that your

car could be a 'wrong'un'.

I wonder if the SP xxxx series could have been used for new body shells

supplied by the factory? Maybe Mike Ellis or Bill P would know. I wouldn't

have expected 1740 new body shells to have been supplied by 1959, but

maybe CKD cars were given such a number?

 

As the number is on a brass tag, it would seem to be genuine.

I can't remember now, what were the body numbers used on the 3B series?

 

Anything unusual about the history that you know of? Weren't log books

buff coloured in 1959? Or does the green log book look to be the first

one issued?

 

AlanR

Edited July 12, 2010 by TR 2100

[Don Elliott]

I don't remember the details and maybe Alan Robinson will add the correct detail. He told me many years ago that there were many numbers at the end of the early series of TR3A where these TRs were not built and the Comm. Nos. for these non-existant TR3As were never used. I believe that when S-T got to the end of the "old parts" bin, it was about TS 57000 or something like that. So they started to build the later TR3As and started at the next "round number" TS 60000.

 

I suspect that your TR is a true post TS 60000 TR3A (also known as a late TR3A) and someone might have stamped a new number on a blank Comm. No. plate which might also explain the odd EB number.

 

The new blank Comm. No. plates are available from all TR parts supliers. Here is a photo of mine which is the original one as I bought my 1958 TR3A brand new in May 1958. Mine has the correct original fonts.

 

The blanks have the same words, etc. but the fonts are different. If yours has the fonts like mine, it came from the factory on your TR3A or possibly it left the factory on another TR and someone might have swopped it.

 

Does your look like mine ?

[TR 2100]

I don't remember the details and maybe Alan Robinson will add the correct detail.

He told me many years ago that there were many numbers at the end of the early series

of TR3A where these TRs were not built and the Comm. Nos. for these non-existant TR3As

were never used. I believe that when S-T got to the end of the "old parts" bin, it was

about TS 57000 or something like that. So they started to build the later TR3As and

started at the next "round number" TS 60000.

 

Don,

 

It was the commission numbers in the 49,000s that were missed. I can't recall the

exact number now, but after about TS 49,300, the series jumped to TS 50,001.

No idea why this was done but there's no evidence to indicate it happened at any

other time.

TS 50,001 was the introduction of the later gearbox.

 

AlanR

Edited July 11, 2010 by TR 2100

[Dick]

Mine is 59400 and has the later floor and raised hinges.

 

Very close to yours!!

 

Dick.

[Menno van Rij]

Have a look at the wiring too: correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that post 60K cars no longer had braided wiring covers. And that there was a change to plastic. My car (61947) had a combination of both: partly cloth and partly plastic.

 

Menno

[stuart]

I rebuilt a late TS 59 thousand a couple of years ago and that had the earlier body but with bolt on stanchions. I will have to check its exact chassis number.

Stuart.

[TR3BGeorge]

Norm, welcome to the world of the "TRANSITION TR." As folks have posted here, numbers before and after the official "transition number" fell into "anything goes" land.

 

And quite understandable: when they run out of the previous model parts, they start with the succeeding model parts. And, once the new model is in full swing, they use up any left-over previous model parts. Which means that [probably] no two transition cars are going to be exactly alike. The same thing happened with the other transitions: TR2-TR3, TR3-TR3A, TR3A-TR4. There were some astounding examples when changing from the TR3 to TR3A body style, involving front aprons, side doors, boot lids, etc. And, I suspect that when they had two models going at the same time (TR4 and Spitfire), a whole lot of shenanigans took place!!

 

Count your blessings! I have a TR3-BEE!!! I got TR4 stuff, TR3A stuff, and probably TR3 and TR2 stuff. The trouble is that IT IS NOT DOCUMENTED BY S-T. I am on my own. Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I have ordered the Spare Parts Catalogue - TR4, to complement my TR3 edition. Even with this, there is no definitive answer as to what constituted my original car.

 

[Not to mention my TR6 FSU and brakes, but that's a story for another time.]

[sidescreen]

Norman: "SP1740" doesn't sound like a correct body number. Body shells were produced by Mulliners who attached a brass identification tag to the bulkhead just above the battery box. These tags were made of brass and were embossed, not stamped. The ID consisted of a prefix, EB, followed by a series of five numbers. After the bodies were completed by Mulliners, they were painted their correct body color (including this brass tag) and then were trucked to Canley. At Canley, the bodies progressed down the line and were mated with the rolling chassis. Another brass ID tag was installed at the factory during final assembly. This tag was placed just below the Mulliners tag. Since the body was already painted, this tag should be natural brass finish.

 

read my article

 

 

Hello Frank,

 

With all respect for your comprehensive article I do have in this matter a different point of view, which one will be right ...........

A quote from Bill Piggott's Original TRIUMPH TR2,3,3A restorer's guide (page 111) says as follows:

 

"It's believed that the six-or seven figure number was allocated to the bare bodyshell by Mulliners, the manufacturers, whereas the " EB" number was a Standard Triumph one allocated to the complete trimmed body".

 

So, in my opinion the EB plate has to be brass one and the bodyshell number plate has to be painted, just the other way around ?

 

Another interesting discovery, same book same page:

 

"The fact that the "EB" number is higher than the commission number "........

My 3A carries the commission number TS61003LO and EB 59992, which is lower.....?

 

Funny after all those years,books, stories and discussions that there always will be unanswered things..........it kept us busy anyway,

 

Regards - Raymond:huh:

[sidescreen]

The mystery around the "EB" number..........how about the meaning - Engine to Body - , because the "marriage" took place at Standard Triumph.

 

Cheers - Raymond:unsure:

[TR 2100]

A quote from Bill Piggott's Original TRIUMPH TR2,3,3A restorer's guide (page 111) says as follows:

 

"It's believed that the six-or seven figure number was allocated to the bare bodyshell by

Mulliners, the manufacturers, whereas the " EB" number was a Standard Triumph one allocated to

the complete trimmed body".

 

Opinion seems to be divided.

 

The EB number was specific to the TR series but the 6/7-digit series ran across

ALL cars/vans etc made by the factory, so I don’t see how the 6/7-digit number

could have been issued by Mulliners.

 

There are so many factors that can displace the relationship between TS commission

number and the EB number.

One obvious one is that TS numbers were issued for Italias, Peerless and Warwick cars.

 

Another totally unpredictable variable is that the TS number was issued when the car

was commissioned, i.e. mated to engine/chassis with any specified optional extras.

So, if a bodyshell had some defect, e.g. had to be re-painted, by the time it returned

to the assembly line, you had an older shell with a new TS number.

 

Also, if the colour of a bodyshell was not such a popular colour, it would have a much

earlier EB number that the eventual TS and 6/7-digit brass plate numbers.

May you could get a bodyshell left at the back with new bodyshells lined up in front.

 

This carried on to the TR4 series. I have two TR4s, made within two weeks of each other,

so the CT numbers are about 800 apart.

The body numbers are also about 800 apart - but the wrong way round - The later CT car

has the earlier body.

 

AlanR

Edited July 13, 2010 by TR 2100

[stuart]

The Mulliners "body in white" number is always painted and the EB number is always plain brass. See attached picture of an original early 2.

Stuart.

[Ian Vincent]

The Mulliners "body in white" number is always painted and the EB number is always plain brass. See attached picture of an original early 2.

Stuart.

 

 

Bit of work to do on this one then Stuart!?

 

Rgds Ian

[Don Elliott]

As you know, I bought my 1958 TR3A brand new and in 1999 when the car was re-sprayed, I made sure which plate was painted and which was left brass. See photo from 2007. This is as it came originally

 

The brass plate shown (2007) is a repro plate fabricated by Frank Angelini because the original brass one became so corroded by battery acid because the control box ( voltage regulator) was factory set wrong and was overcharging the battery and the hot acid was spitting out the vent holes in the caps.

 

You can see that my corroded one has never been painted. I am so into correct detail, i have re-used the original round-head screws for the separate plates.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Don Elliott

[Don Elliott]

Here is another view from 2007 with the upper original plate sprayed black - as it was when new.

[sidescreen]

Hi All,

 

So, both stories Frank's - Mine - Stuart's and Don's, shows us that we're back where we started from.........

 

It seems that both combinations are "legal", whenever you wanna go for originality yes or no.

 

Anyway as I said before, that's one of the nice TR things what kept us so busy !

 

Regards - Raymond:)

[stuart]

Bit of work to do on this one then Stuart!?

 

Rgds Ian

 

Little job for late on next year

Stuart.

[angelfj]

Hello Frank,

 

With all respect for your comprehensive article I do have in this matter a different point of view, which one will be right ...........

A quote from Bill Piggott's Original TRIUMPH TR2,3,3A restorer's guide (page 111) says as follows:

 

"It's believed that the six-or seven figure number was allocated to the bare bodyshell by Mulliners, the manufacturers, whereas the " EB" number was a Standard Triumph one allocated to the complete trimmed body".

 

So, in my opinion the EB plate has to be brass one and the bodyshell number plate has to be painted, just the other way around ?

 

Another interesting discovery, same book same page:

 

"The fact that the "EB" number is higher than the commission number "........

My 3A carries the commission number TS61003LO and EB 59992, which is lower.....?

 

Funny after all those years,books, stories and discussions that there always will be unanswered things..........it kept us busy anyway,

 

Regards - Raymond:huh:

 

 

Raymond: hello

 

You may be right, but I ALWAYS was told the reverse and if you are right (and you may be) there are hundreds and perhaps thousands of sidescreen TR's that have the wrong tag painted body color. Many of you realise that I have been producing reproduction tags since 2006 and each tag leaves here with a copy of my write-up, and recommendations regarding painting/finishing. So, you can understand my anxiety regarding this issue. On the other hand, many restorers prefer to leave the tags with a high finish and not paint which also looks very nice!

[TR 2100]

It's many many years now since I had access to any official records.

Some new information has come to light over the years, so I mustn't

be too rigid with the conclusions I came to all those years ago.

 

The evidence quoted by Stuart and Don is irrefutable.

I could understand the EB number being attached by the factory to a

completed bodyshell rather than by Mulliners as I had always thought.

 

I don't think the EB number is (normally) higher than the commission

number, but perhaps Mike Ellis could clarify what is typical.

 

I can see some logic in the 6/7-digit number being fixed on by Mulliners,

obviously before painting, but look at the numbers involved.

769864 for Stuart's TR2, 988670 for Don's early 3A, a difference of almost

220,000. Clearly, other vehicles are involved in this series.

Did Mulliners really manufacture so many bodyshells? I don't know, but

I didn't think Mulliners has that capacity.

Do other period Triumphs have a similar 6/7-digit number?

 

The 6/7-digit number appears always (I believe) in the records used for traces

yet the EB number only sometimes, so the 6/7-digit number seems to be more of a

factory reference than a Mulliner series. That is why I have always regarded the

6/7-digit number as a vehicle number rather than a supplier's number.

 

What really does surprise me is that this mystery has not been resolved

over the years. We seem to have gained so much knowledge from various

personnel who worked in the factories, yet we've never got to the bottom

of these numbers.

 

AlanR

[vivdownunder]

My files on the bulkhead tags concur with what Raymond, Don and Stuart have contributed.

 

Years ago I discussed a list of knowledge gaps in TR folklore with Ron Chapman, a retired S-T design engineer who lived nearby. Ron designed the wide mouth TR3A apron.

 

As best he knew, the lower tag recorded the Mulliner's body number, irrespective of which manufacturer it was supplied to. It was affixed at Mulliners and painted over when the allocated body colour was applied. That's why when you remove it from an original car, there's either undercoat or white beneath.

 

The EB tag was fitted later in the assembly process at the S-T factory, which explains why it was always left in natural brass. Not economic to retro paint each EB tag to match the already applied final colour. This also goes to explain why it had different fixings to the Mulliner's tag. EB just happened to be the next body number allotted by S-T to the new " Triumph Sports 20TR2" sports car.

 

Although TR3B George did proffer an hilarious opinion that EB was selected in honour of a young lady in the S-T office, Elsie B, with Sabrina like attributes. Presumably after the TR2 headlght pods were noticed in the pre-production design drawings.

 

We also know that S-T recorded various body upgrades using the EB number for accuracy. The last brass door hinged body was EB54335, and plain TRIUMPH nose letters were introduced from body EB72384.

 

Therefore it would be more exact for the "later" TR3A body to be known by its actual EB number, rather than at car TS60000. This could explain the early/late bodywork discrepancies close to TS60000 as mentioned above.

 

But as they say in the classics, you can't change history.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[sidescreen]

Hi Viv,

 

So it seems that you finally solve the riddle about the tags ...........!

 

Nice story BTW about the S-T designer Ron Chapman who designed the wide 3A mouth, didn't know that at all.

 

Thank you all for your replies.

 

Cheers - Raymond

[Norman D]

Thanks for all the replies and appologies for using the term 'chassis no' instead of commision no, as you can see my body only has one brass plate and no sign of a Mulliners plate, also as you can see it is an SP no which obviously means Special Prototype making my car very valuable indeed! Further appologies for the cross head screws I have found the originals and will polish them up.

[vivdownunder]

Norman, I overlooked the significance of the body tag in your first post, and the photo has jogged my memory.

 

SP was the code used for the special and ultra rare Speed models, produced for factory competition work.

 

I had believed that SP was only stamped on the commission plate, but it's possible that the body had an SP number too.

 

The SP bodies were lightened and may have been entirely a Standard-Triumph creation, rather than starting as a Mulliner's body. Thus your car may never have had a Mulliner's tag.

 

More of the car's history might be uncovered by obtaining a birth certificate - details for Traces are on page 2 of Traction.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.