high torque starter

[glasgow4a]

i have just taken delivery of high torque starter for my 4a.My questions is do you leave in the existing shim starter to bell housing or leave it out. Also do you leave the existing solenoid in or replace the lead battery to starter. cheers ian.

[TR 2100]

i have just taken delivery of high torque starter for my 4a.My questions is do you leave in

the existing shim starter to bell housing or leave it out.

Also do you leave the existing solenoid in or replace the lead battery to starter.

 

I'm watching this thread with interest.

 

It was only due to another recent thread that I realised the

high torque starters engage from the front, whereas the original

starter engaged from the rear.

 

I thought the ring gear had a bevelled edge on the rear to allow

smooth engagement. That being the case, engagement from the front

would be much harsher.

 

Is that the (main) reason for the different sound of high torque

starters?

 

AlanR

[Ian Vincent]

I am also watching this thread with interest - so who knows the answer to the questions?

 

On the subject of which side the starter engages from, am I right in thinking that a hi torque starter is a pre-engaged starter in that there is a solenoid that pulls the gear into the flywheel before it starts to turn thus obviating the need for the chamfer on the flywheel teeth?

 

Rgds Ian

[Nigel 628]

Not an expert reply, just my experience after fitting one to my TR4 some months ago.

 

Shim: dunno, but I didn't put it back in and it all works fine so far. It didn't seem right to use the shim with a modern starter.

 

Yes, these are modern pre-engaged starters, Ian is right. They are Japanese too, if it bothers you on a British car!

 

They are geared down internally for extra torque so sound different from the direct acting original starters.

 

Just connect the original starter motor cable from the solenoid to the connection bolt on the new starter.

 

 

Nigel

 

PS: See also recent forum posts on reliability of these starters, although I've had no trouble with mine so far, touch wood......

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

I have just replaced a dodgy HT with a new identical unit from Moss.

Shim can be removed but even with it insitu there is apprx 75% of teeth engagment/overlap.

 

Yes, they are pre-engage units and are pushed into the ring gear.

It is true that the forward face of the ring gear is not beveled but fortunately the HT driving gear has beveled teeth and so engagement is

problem free.

The harsh noise comes from the HT internal straight cut gears.

 

Lets see how long this bu99er lasts.

 

Roger

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

I should have mentioned some history for the above post.

Symptoms of duff HT starter - turn key, pre-engages, engines turns for 0.5 sec, starter disengages and spins for a while.

 

I took it apart as much as I could. The heavy contacts were badly pitted - Ha Ha I thought.

Cleaned contacts, reassemble re-fit. Turn key. Exactly the same.

Remove starter. Test pre-engage on the bench and it works OK.

 

Having put in and taken it out half a dozen times I bit the bullet and bought a new replacement. Works perfectly.

Apprx life of old unit 5 years!!

 

 

I think I'll send old unit to Cox & Co and see if they can sort it.

 

Roger

[KnightsT]

Not an answer I'm afraid, just another two questions.

 

I fitted one of these hi-torque starter motors as part of the full restoration of my TR4A.

 

1. What is this shim you are all talking about?

2. Mine works fine starting the car, with no discernable (to me anyway) difference in sound to a normal motor, just a much quicker turnover and start, but once the car is running there is a discernable 'gravelly' sound coming from the ring gear gbox/engine interface, like two not quite exactly meshed metal faces running together without lubrication. Is this the 'harsh' sound referred to above, should it stop when the engine is running, and should I have put grease or other lubrication on the teeth of the motor before fitting? I refrained from the latter on the basis that oily substances in the clutch housing area was not a good idea, and that the workshop manual specifically states not to lubricate the engagement gear on the ordinary SM's.

 

What else could this sound be? It is not harsh enough to suggest damage is being done, but unusual enough for me to not be happy to just forget about it. I have not yet rechecked the tappets, but the engine has only done about 20 miles since being reconned by CME. I also tried to adher to the 'don't let it tickover for the first 5-10 min after first start after recon' rule, so please tell me this cannot be the sound of a bu**erred cam - it sounds like it is emmanating only from the rear of the engine as I said above.

 

Got its MoT yesterday and taxed today so was feeling really pleased with myself until I noticed this...

 

Thoughts please....

 

Mick

[RogerH]

Hi Mick,

on the orginal starter there was a thin (0.020") shim that went between the starter and the housing.

Why it was fitted I don't know as it is too thin to make any odds - but Triumph didn't wasted money on needless shims!!

 

One assumes you have a HT motor for the 4A and not some other oddity.

The HT drive gear has 10 teeth. This sits just forward of the flywheel and starter ring.

Could it be that your 10 toothed drive gear is constantly touching the flywheel

If this is the case then the shim would come in handy.

 

If you have a spare 30 minutes whip the HT motor out and do some measuring.

 

Roger

[KnightsT]

Well I took out the starter (lessons in that - see below) and made a few measurements and observations - oh, and I found the 'shim' stuck to the front of the original starter.

 

Well as you might see in the photo my depth gauge suggests there is about 1-2mm clearance between the starter teeth and the ring gear, so in theory all should be ok. I don't have enough hands to hold the camera, depth gauge and also pull out the starter gear to its full extent, so you'll have to take my word that it comes out enough to mesh well with the flywheel ring teeth. That said if I add the shim into the equation it gives a much better clearance in the starter inoperative position, and also a better mesh in the operating position, so I'm going to reassemble with the shim in place. Bad news is no clue about the source of the noise I mentioned above, and there is zero evidence of wear on the flywheel or starter motor gear teeth (the SM teeth have a double bevel that looks designed and intended) - so watch this space for further updates on that problem.

 

 

Now for the lessons for those that might benefit:

1. Getting the starter out without loosening the gearbox cover and moving it back a couple of inches, is impossible - for me anyway - so don't faff about for half an hour in denial with a range of contortions and spanners, just get the bl**dy cover off.

2. If your hi-torque has a captive bolt in the upper mounting position (see photo) like mine (Wosp manufacturer) then you will have the devils job getting it out if you have a Phoenix sports exhaust. I only managed it by removing the two solenoid mounting bolts as that gave jjjuuust enough clearance and it ripped the heat wrapping in the process. This captive upper mounting bolt is way longer than in needs to be so shorten it before you fit the starter (I have taken about 10mm off mine before I took the photo below) and then you will be able to get it in and out.

 

 

Any thoughts or advice welcome. Update to follow.

 

Mick

[graeme]

Hi Mick,

 

Do you know if new bolts were used when the flywheel was assembled to the crank. I used 'correct part number' new bolts from a TR supplier, but these were about 1 mm too long and fouled on the oil seal housing. Fortunately I spotted this on the bench and was able to rectify. This could account for the noise you hear, but I assume it will go as the material wears away.

 

Cheers

 

Graeme

[KnightsT]

Hello Graeme,

 

Afraid I don't know. The engine was recon'd, and the flywheel lightened and fitted by CME in Bracknell, who do these engines all the time, so I assume they would know all the wrinkles/problems .... but you never know. I will bear it in mind once I have the engine back running and try more diagnosis.

 

Thanks for the input

 

Mick

[KnightsT]

Hmmm ....

 

Well I replaced the starter with the shim in place and started up - no gravelly sound. Now this was only a quick run in the garage with the door open, so I really need to give it a blast down the road to be sure the problem is really resolved, but sounds promising.

 

Mick