Bob Brennan Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 No, I'm not talking about money; I'm talking about TS24528's carbon footprint. Black exhaust, a little sooty and intermittent misfiring at lower RPM's. I've put in new fuel lines and pump, but haven't touched the carbs because I haven't been able to locate a copy of "S.U.'s For Dummies". I have a carb phobia and I'm convinced that I will only make things worse. Haynes only exacerbated my fear. My question is: Is there a magic screw I can turn to end Global Warming? It has to idiot proof. Bob Brennan S. Freeport, ME Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John McIver Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 No, I'm not talking about money; I'm talking about TS24528's carbon footprint. Black exhaust, a little sooty and intermittent misfiring at lower RPM's. I've put in new fuel lines and pump, but haven't touched the carbs because I haven't been able to locate a copy of "S.U.'s For Dummies". I have a carb phobia and I'm convinced that I will only make things worse. Haynes only exacerbated my fear. My question is: Is there a magic screw I can turn to end Global Warming? It has to idiot proof. Bob Brennan S. Freeport, ME Hi Bob, The only way that you can cure your phobia is to have a go, the same way I had to back in 1959 with my MG TC. If you carefully follow the rules as laid out in whatever service instructions that you have, you will have great difficulty in going wrong. SU's are truly the simplest and easiest to set up once you have done it. But, like everything else on a 50 y/o they have to be in good condition to get a good result. Regards, John. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Bob, have a look here....... http://www.teglerizer.com/sucarbs/index.html john Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 It's not difficult provided you are methodical. You have two options. Minor tweaking to weaken the mixture Major tuning from scratch according to the manual If you are not very confident and the car is running well apart from the black exhaust and sooting of plugs, I'd suggest option 1 (with clean or preferably new plugs fitted). Make sure that you keep a record of every adjustment you make to each carb (e.g. count number of flats turned on the adjuster screws, etc.) so that you can always retrace your steps and get back to your original setup and a running car if all else fails. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Colin Fairhurst Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 No, I'm not talking about money; I'm talking about TS24528's carbon footprint. Black exhaust, a little sooty and intermittent misfiring at lower RPM's. I've put in new fuel lines and pump, but haven't touched the carbs because I haven't been able to locate a copy of "S.U.'s For Dummies". I have a carb phobia and I'm convinced that I will only make things worse. Haynes only exacerbated my fear. My question is: Is there a magic screw I can turn to end Global Warming? It has to idiot proof. Bob Brennan S. Freeport, ME Hi Bob, I am having a similar problem with my TR2. The engine runs quite rich on tickover and at low speeds. I think the problem has to do with the fact that I do not have the correct needles in the carbs'. The original workshop manual states that the standard needles for (TR2) normal motoring should be FV and GC for "high speed motoring and competition driving". The needles that I have fitted are CR which are close to the GC needles but are richer at low speeds and leaner at wider throttle openings. This rusults in the spark plugs fouling up and causing uneven running. The TR3 with H6 carbs'. had TD needles at first which were changed to TE early on and at engine No. TS10037E superseded to type SM. I am going to post a wanted for GC needles. The SU website previously mentioned is very good for camparing needles. Regards, Colin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Colin Fairhurst Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 No, I'm not talking about money; I'm talking about TS24528's carbon footprint. Black exhaust, a little sooty and intermittent misfiring at lower RPM's. I've put in new fuel lines and pump, but haven't touched the carbs because I haven't been able to locate a copy of "S.U.'s For Dummies". I have a carb phobia and I'm convinced that I will only make things worse. Haynes only exacerbated my fear. My question is: Is there a magic screw I can turn to end Global Warming? It has to idiot proof. Bob Brennan S. Freeport, ME Hi Bob, I would like to add that yesterday the missfiring on my TR2 at tickover got much worse and began to occur also at low speeds so I started to investigate. When I removed the dashpot on the forward carb'. I noticed that petrol was rising out of the jet tube indicating flooding of that carb'. so I removed the tops of both float chambers and could see the level of petrol was higher in the forward float chamber. I lifted the float out with great care using two plastic spatulas to slide it up the centre bolt and found that there was petrol inside it indicating that it had a leak. I have got two old spare carbs'. so I tested one of the spare floats in warm water to see if it produced any air bubbles, which it didn't and fitted that as a replacement. On running the engine again the missfire had gone and it ran very well. The sparkplugs in the two cylinders fed by the other carb'. are still black and so is the exhaust pipe but I think that is down to the wrong needle type. Regards, Colin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Thanks all, for your suggestions. A friend suggested that I try tweaking the needle adjustment screw nuts at the bottom of both carbs but that just seemed to make things worse, as feared. I have run up very few miles on TS24528, but I know that it was well maintained by previous owners. This could be a result of E10 gasoline - I don't know. After spending an afternoon of trial and error adjustments, I am totally frustrated. Bob Brennan S. Freeport, ME Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlejim Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) Bob, It won't be the ethanol, it needs a richer mixture compared to non-ethanol fuel. The dragsters that run on just methanol apparently have jets the diameter of your thumb instead the size of the orifice of the anus of the nits on a gnat's nuts like on the TR. Because you have to use more of it to get the same power, the pundits here say if it isn't 4 cents a litre cheaper you are doing your dough by using it. (We still have a choice.) Edited July 19, 2009 by littlejim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Hi Bob, Immediately behind the air cleaners beneath the carby bodies you'll find a wide brass nut at the bottom of the jet. Try winding that up two flats at a time, which will lean off the mixture. There are a couple of other things that can effect rich running - (1) With the aircleaners off, check the jets are returning up into the carby body once the choke is released. (2) Check the dampers are sliding freely in the dash pots, and drop with a metallic clunk. (3) Check for oil in the dashpots. About SAE 20 is ideal. (4) Check the throttle spindles are not worn or the mixture will be upset. (4) Fit a new set of spark plugs. One grade hotter will burn cleaner with unleaded. (5) Often a new set of jets and needles are required to cure rich running. (6) Check the dizzy clamp isn't loose. Too far retarded will give symptoms of running rich. Hope that helps, Regards, Viv. PS Welcome to the forum fellow Melbourne resident and TRR Oz member, John McIver. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Thanks for the suggestions, Viv. I found the adjustment screws and screwed them in incrementally as you suggested. The nuts could be easily turned by hand and I wondered if these could have wandered over time. So, I screwed the nuts all the way up, finger tight and backed both down one complete turn. No improvement. Then, one "flat" at a time on each carb. Same result. I'm at 2 1/2 turns now and still running rough. I can hear the metallic clink you mention in suggestion (2) and the choke seems to be functioning and not sticking. Dashpots are filled to 1/2" below top and primed with 20W. Not sure how to diagnose worn throttle spindles or jets/needles. Couldn't find a copy of "S.U.'s for Dummies", remember? New NGK - BP5HS were installed and gapped to .025. They were sooted heavily upon inspection. The dizzy clamp is not loose. How would I determine if the timing is retarded and remedy? Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Thanks for the suggestions, Viv. I found the adjustment screws and screwed them in incrementally as you suggested. The nuts could be easily turned by hand and I wondered if these could have wandered over time. So, I screwed the nuts all the way up, finger tight and backed both down one complete turn. No improvement. Then, one "flat" at a time on each carb. Same result. I'm at 2 1/2 turns now and still running rough. I can hear the metallic clink you mention in suggestion (2) and the choke seems to be functioning and not sticking. Dashpots are filled to 1/2" below top and primed with 20W. Not sure how to diagnose worn throttle spindles or jets/needles. Couldn't find a copy of "S.U.'s for Dummies", remember? New NGK - BP5HS were installed and gapped to .025. They were sooted heavily upon inspection. The dizzy clamp is not loose. How would I determine if the timing is retarded and remedy? Bob Bob there is no need to fill the dashpots up as much as that with oil. Correct level is just below the top of the inner tube on the top of the piston otherwise it will only get used up through the engine and you will be permanently refilling them. To check the spindle wear run the car at tickover and then spray some carb cleaner over the ends of the spindles were they enter the carb body, any wear will show up as a rise in tickover as soon as the spray enters the bushing. Initial timing can be done with a strobe light and then road test to determine any pinking. Distributor is turned anti clockwise to advance and clockwise to retard. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Bob, the next thing to check is that the carbie fuel bowl levels are correct. Remove the tops and use a 7/16" or 11mm drill bit under the forks to set the correct level. Once these checks are completed without any improvement, then it's usually new carbie needles and jets required. It's a bit of a tricky business to centre the new jet so the needle drops freely into it. Might be best to get a local carbie shop to do fit them if you aren't confident - the carbies don't need to come off the car. You'll need 100 jets/SM needles, and minor gasket kits. Regards, Viv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yes Bob, I think that different float levels may be my problem with a sooty exhaust, mine are all plastic with no apparent adjustment though....... go easy on leaning them out...... better a bit sooty than melted like mine! john Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted July 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Viv, Before I check float bowl levels, would you clear this up for me from your previous post: "(6) Check the dizzy clamp isn't loose. Too far retarded will give symptoms of running rich." "Practical hints for the maintenance of the Triumph T.R.3" states: "Use only Premium grade fuels of 95 octane or higher and so long as the engine is free from carbon, it will not pink. A substantial carbon build-up may cause 'pinking'. This will necessitate retarding the ignition slightly so that 'pinking' is just audible when pulling hard when the engine speed is in excess of 1500 r.p.m. To advance ignition, rotate the knurled screw on the distributor." I think I picked up from Haynes that turning the knurled screw clockwise retards ignition and counterclockwise advances it. Does the clamp bolt need to be loosened to make this adjustment? To the untrained, it seems that you and the pamphlet are on opposite tacks. 95 octane is history here in Maine. 93 w/ 10% ethanol is the new reality and 20% is coming. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Bob - They changed the octane scale about 10 or 15 years ago. The old octane 95 is more like 91 today. That's what I use all the time in my 1958 TR3A. That's about the highest number we can get here in Canada. But last weekend I was in Vermont and filled up with 93 octane. It was a Shell station and it's the first time that I've seen a pump with the words "Contains 10% Ethanol" on the pump. BTW the TR is going like a bomb now with the 93 octane. I may have to retard the timing when I buy my next tankful of 91 octane. To reduce the sputtering and stalling or vapour lock I was getting in 2007, I have changed the fuel hose for a new one (mine has the banjo fittings) and I also add 4 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil to each tankful. This is an upper cylinder lubricant and I was told to do this because of the Ethanol. Since changing the hose and adding this "snake oil", I have had no more episodes of stalling or sputtering. When I remove my sparkplugs, they are sandy tan in the center with loose black powder (soot) on the outer rim. In Canada, there are no signs or notices regarding Ethanol and we never know what brand has or has not got any Ethanol. In Canada, I have been sticking to Shell and Esso because they run fine in the TR. Sunoco, Petro-can and Ultramar (all in Ontario) gave me the same grief that I had in 2007 when I drove to VTR in Valley Forge, PA and back (1525 miles) and where there was Ethanol in the gasoline. As for the distributor setting, I set the timing by playing with the knurled knob. I accelerate and if it pinks for the gas I am using, I will retard it by turning the knurled knob towards the "R". When I no longer hear it pinking in 4th gear lugging the engine up a hill at 1500 RPM, then I know I have the timing right. Doesn't your distributor have the "R" and the "A" for retard and advance visible in the body of the housing ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted July 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Hello Don, No, my distributor body has no such useful letters. Clockwise or counterclockwise and does it sound like I need to retard or advance the spark? Thanks Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Bob - Here is a photo of the body. If ypu look closely you can see the "R" and the "A". This should help you figure which was to turn the knurled knob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted July 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Don, Thanks for the photo. Now I've got it - cclw to advance, clw to retard. Does the clamp need to be loosened to adjust with the knurled knob? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 (edited) Bob, the reason I suggested to look at the main clamp bolt on the distributor is because if it's loose, the dizzy can self rotate to a long way retarded, and the fuel mixture fails to burn correctly. The symptoms are black sooty deposits and engine overheating, as the mixture is being ignited when the piston is on the way down, and has lost compression. If your clamp bolt was tight, then the timing should be OK. The clamp bolt isn't loosened to adjust the vernier via the knurled knob. The clamp bolt is for setting the ignition to 4 degrees BTDC, with the vernier on the neutral notch. Then the A-R vernier is used to either dial out any pinking by retarding it a notch at a time, or advancing up a notch at a time until it just starts to pink. It's essentially a fine tuning mechanism for various fuel octanes, as Don describes in his 2nd last para. This adjustment is road tested by booting the car away from 20mph in top gear and listening for a sharp metallic pinking sound. Which of course is the audible telltale of an engine trying to destroy itself by igniting the mixture too early. I wouldn't worry too much about the ignition until you are satisfied the mixture is not too rich. As long as it's not pinking, TR's will run happily on a wide timing tolerance without losing much performance. Regards, Viv. Edited July 23, 2009 by vivdownunder Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Bob - Don't loosen any bolts to rotate the knurled knob. Just rotate it. You will see the front end where the vacuum advance pipe comes out moving forwards or towards the rear as it moves a graduation or more depending how far you need to move it. I feel that if your distributor body does not have the "A" and "R" on the body, perhaps your distributor was swopped over from another British car. If this is the case, it's most probable that the counterweights that give you the mechanical advance are designed for that other car. You need to have your distributor checked by one of the two best guys to get this resolved. If those counterweights and the body come from an old Mini 850 cc, it would prevent your TR from having the full performance during acceleration. The same thing goes if the body and weights were from a very high-powered Lotus or Lotus Cortina. Check this out with : - http://www.advanceddistributors.com/services07_2.htm http://distributordoctor.com/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted July 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Don, In fact, my dist. body is identical to yours. What escaped my notice was that the arrow has two points. When I looked at it last night by flashlight, I saw AR with an arrow underneath it pointing towards the block and discounted that as extraneous information. Your picture corrected my first impression. Viv, Since the clamp was tight, should I look into float bowl levels next? Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Yes Bob, an SU carbie will run rich if the fuel level in the bowl is too high. Also check the brass floats in the bowls to make sure they haven't pinholed and taken in fuel. Though this usually shows as flooding out of the overflow pipe on the top of the bowl. A piece of thin wire with a bent leg can be slid down the side of the float and turned underneath to lift them out. Regards, Viv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Bob _ As suggested by Viv, I have read that ethanol will attack solder and the floats are soldered together, so remove them as suggested and check them for leaks. As you know, a float in a float bowl will not float if it's full of "petrol" which might have leaked inside through a pin-hole or bigger. This might explain why you are running rich. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted July 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Thanks Don and Viv for your help. I took the float bowls off this morning - they were floating at the right levels and the bowls were pristine so the previous owner had taken care of them. I advanced the spark slightly and that made a world of difference. I took it out a couple hours ago and it ran beautifully! I drained out the old Castrol (curious to detect gasoline odor in the crankcase - found none). Changed filters and filled it up with 6 qts. of Valvoline VR-1 20/50 with a big yellow sticker proclaiming "High Zinc". I am just about to run down to the Irving station and fill up with the dreaded E-10, but I'll add some of your Mystery Oil, Don! Today is our 39th anniversary and tonight the misses and me will be steppin' out in style in our TR. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted July 26, 2009 Report Share Posted July 26, 2009 Bob - Happy Anniversary. This coming November will complete 44 years that we have been married. We try to get out in the 1958 TR3A as often as be can when it's sunny and warm. In fact, it was February 1965 that I asked Louise to marry me. We were sitting in the TR in front of her house. The snow-banks were twice as high as the TR. It had to be about 10 degrees F that late evening. She replied she would give me the answer in a week. BTW, we have been to Maine quite often. Here is a photo from August, 1958 near Kennebunkport and Wells. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.