jstone Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Hi All, I have been happily reading the wealth of information on timing the TR6, the reason being that I am going to fit a petronix ignition and suspect that I will then need to adjust the timing slightly. Now being someone that has the mantra 'if it aint broke............' I don't want to mess up the timing as it currently runs fine with a very slight amount of pinking. Now cutting to the chase, which way do you twist the dizzy to advance the timing i.e clockwise / anti clockwise whilst standing over it from the passanger wing ? Also if I have a slight pinking does that mean I need to advance or retard ? Many Thanks as always Jeremy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davehop Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Hi Jeremy To prevent pinking you need to retard. ie turn with the rotation. Pinking happens when the mixture is ignited too early in the stroke - too much mixture is already burning before the piston is at tdc and tries to push the piston back the way it came against the rotation of the crank. the rotor arm turns counter-clockwise, so to advance the ignition (to make it happen earlier in the stroke) turn the dizzy clockwise (against the rotation). To retard, the opposite. Hope it's clear Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianhoward Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Jeremy I fitted the Pertronix set up to my 5 a couple of years back together with their 'Flamethrower' epoxy coil... Yes, it did need adjustment once installed. If I remember correctly I set up the vernier at the mid point and then set the static to around 5 or 6 deg BTC (11 deg in the book I believe) - this I understand to allow for the lower octane petrol (although I do put in Super-Unleaded and Castrol VM Plus). Although it appeared to run fine on the driveway, it was only once on the road and on acceleration/higher revs that I found small adjustments were needed - initially it was as though a rev limiter was fitted! Once adjusted (and sorry but I cannot recall now which way I changed things! Knowing me it was probably trial and error!!!) it runs and 'spins up' very nicely with power all the way through the rev range. A few months after I fitted 'Formula Power' HT leads... I am hoping to have 'reconstructive surgery' on the dizzy by the 'Distributor Doctor' to prove all is well there as that is potentially the weak link in the ignition system. Happy days ! Brgds Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 I fitted a Pertronix Ignitor in 2006 and it was one of the best modifications I ever made with regard to reliability.I set the Ignitor air gap to 30 thou. and timed the engine to fire 11 degrees BTDC at idle speed with a timing light.I rotated the whole distributor body as Dave states clockwise to advance.It did need a fair bit of adjustment as I recall.I have a CP engine with no vacuum advance.I don't have any real pinging problems as long as I can get 98(RON) octane fuel.When I'm in the bush and can only get 95 RON I just have to back off on the throttle for a while.I didn't need to do any fine adjustment but I do have Advance/Retard arrows marked on the distributor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Don’t forget there is also a micrometer adjustment on the side of the dizzy itself; you can often get enough adjustment to eliminate pinking from that (depending where it’s been set) without physically having to move the dizzy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jstone Posted February 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Thanks all for the help. Guess what ! Sunny Day, I stupidly decide to fit the pertronix and now I get nothing, no start up not even the slightest whiff of a cyclinder firing !!! PLEASE HELP, WHAT HAVE I DONE ? I removed the point and condenser, fitted the baseplate, fitted the pickup, fitted the magnet set the gap between the magnet and pick up using the clear plastic gauge. Put the rotor arm back on. attached the black lead to the negative side of the coil and the red to the positive side of the coil. The coil is a new flame thrower. I've checked the forum and looked at installed pictures of the pertonix and it looks the same as I have done. So really as to a loss why I have no start up. I will clean all the plugs and check the gaps as its been a while since I've done that, but anybody any ideas ? ARrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Jeremy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TIMS Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) Jeremy Sat in the office I do not have the instructions in front of me but my recollection is; Red is from / to a live feed from the fuse box Black to the coil. Also are you / were you on a balast resistor coil and have you accounted for that? Regards Tim Edited February 27, 2009 by TIMS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jstone Posted February 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Hi Tim, Thanks for the help I just had one red wire going from the coil + to the dizzy. I was running the flame thrower with the original points and that was working fine Can't work out exactly where the red wire from the pertronix is now meant to go nor where a red wire from the + side of the coil should go. I undertand that they should both get to something. If anybody can help with real 'jack and jill' type instructions I would be most grateful Cheers Jeremy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodri Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 You are correct with the black lead to the negative side of the coil and the red to the positive side. There should also be the live feed going to the positive side of the coil that originally went to the positive side of your coil. You have to have the power going into the coil. Note: This is for a different car without a ballast resistor, my feed wire was white, and I guess yours would be the same Lucas colour. Rod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jstone Posted February 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Thanks for the reply. As per the quick sketch below, this is where I have got to and now I am stuck ! Its how the coil gets the power ? Where does the positive wire from the coil go to to pick up the supply ? I am hoping I have not got some rougue bodged electrics, but I am puzzled by the balast resistor. Do all 6's have these or only some. Mine is a 1971 CP 150. Where is the ballast resistor if I have one as according to the instructions I should be plugging into this ? Please, Please help, its one of those I now wish I had not started . Thanks in advance Jeremy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey Royal Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) Jeremy, I had a pertronix on mine worked great, but have now put a 123 on. Anyway my coil was feed with a supply cable that came from the bundle of cables tht are near the alternator. It could be a white wire, but not sure as the colour looks more tan, contaminated from oil etc. over the years. I believe this white cable comes from ignition to coil via fuse box, should be opposite two green wires on fusebox. What colour cableshave you got in this bundle, Thick brown and white to alternator Smaller Brown and yellow on alternator Redundant small brown. There will be a brown white cable going down to the oil thingy on the block And there should be the white which should go to coil, positive Thats whats on mine. Hope its some help. Cant comment on ballast resitor though. But this will help http://www.vtr.org/maintain/ballast.shtml Cheers Edited February 27, 2009 by Jersey Royal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davehop Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Hi Jeremy Here's a pic of my set-up. Running with a ballast resistor so the feed to the + side of the coil is white/yellow. Hope it helps. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davehop Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 btw Guy, how's that 123 running? Much difference to your old set-up? Best dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey Royal Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) btw Guy, how's that 123 running? Much difference to your old set-up? Best dave Hi Dave, Pertronixs was a vast improvement on my standard distributor, 123 was even better. However pertonixs will be only as good as your distributor is at that time, whereas 123 is new. I have sent of my original distributor to the Doc Martin for refurbing, all ready to go my new fast road engine. As an experiment of sorts, i fitted pertronixs into a mates standard six and then put in the 123. He thought pertronixs was a great improvement especially on smoothness. The 123 gave him better get up and go. He could not stop smiling. However he has fitted neither as yet Cheers Guy Edited February 27, 2009 by Jersey Royal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Jeremy, My Pertronix takes its red, positive feed from the positive feed into the ballast resistor.The ballast resistor on mine is a white ceranic box about 20mmx20mmx80mm adjacent to the coil.Look for it in the 12 V wire currently feeding into your coil.It's not shown on your sketch so I assume it's not included in the Pertronix circuit at present.The output wire from the ceramic resistor the goes to the coil positive terminal. The black, negative Pertronix lead goes to the negative coil lead.Its been a while since I installed it but from looking at my installation now I'd say it's intended to feed the Pertronix with the full 12V supply ,without losing any voltage through the ballast resistor. Still reckon it's one of the best reliability mods I have made. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
67_gt6 Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Jeremy, you may find you have to twist the dizzy one way or the other quite a bit to get it to fire, that's what happened to me when I fitted Pertronix, then adjust from there Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Jeremy, I found the instructions that came with my Pertronix in the shed this morning.If the engine won't start they recommend connecting a temporary jumper wire directly from the red Pertronix wire to the battery positive side.If the engine starts you have a low voltage problem.If the engine starts at this point I'd look at the permanent feed to the Pertronix-make sure its 12V with a multimeter. Note in the instructions Pertronix also warn to watch out for permanent damage to the Ignitor due to overheating if it's left on with the engine not running. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 For those that really want to update their TR ignition system I can heartily recommend the Megajolt system as featured in this months TRAction..... john Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jstone Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Hi All, Apologies for this saga continuing I tried the direct feed from the battery and that has made no difference and then I swapped back to the original points and condensor to start the 6 up and make sure that it is firing properly and guess what.....................the same problem no firing at all. This has got me thinking. The starter motor is turning but could a duff battery still start the starter motor and not provide enough juice to the low tension circuit and ultimately the coil ? Is is that the draw from the starter motor starves the coil feed ? I am going to fully charge the battery and then try again tomorrow as it was taking quite a while to get the 6 going before I decided to install the pertronix. Other than that the fuel pump is whirring away and has not been a problem to date so am not inclined to believe it is a fuel starvation issue. Thanks Jeremy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Jeremy, It was the uncertainity and effort to start with points ignition,particularily if it had been a fair while since a tune up, that convinced me to go to electronic ignition.I'd suggest you pull the plugs out and leave the points system installed.If the plugs are still wet from the previous attempts your fuel system is probably OK. Crank the engine over with the plugs out and see if you get a spark,don't worry about the timing until you know you are getting a spark.The engine should turn heartily with the plugs out.If you are not getting a spark I'd check the coil,either use an ohmmeter to check the primary and secondary resistance or try a substitute coil.Messing around with the Pertronix switched on and without the engine running can burn out the coil. Once you get a spark proceed back to square one ,and check the timing etc with your preferred ignition system. In my experience the vast majority of starting problems are due to ingnition faults. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR6 Poor Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Its a long shot, however make sure the little spring loaded carbon button in the distributor cap, that rides on the rotor, is not stuck in the retracted position, also, check the coil wire for continuity, and you could check the coil low voltage circuit for resistance. However, since it worked before, the problem may well be in the cap/rotor/wire. Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Hi Jeremy Have you forgot to check the dreaded rotor arm ? Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davehop Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Hi Jeremy When I fitted my ignitor I noticed that the magnetic disc left the rotor arm riding a little high on the spindle. It needed about 3-5mm filing off the bottom to make it seat properly and clear the disc - may be worth a look? Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jstone Posted March 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Hi All, thank you all so much for the help and support. Really appreciate it. I have charged the battery full and this gives 26 volts when checked with a voltmeter. I then checked the wire coming off of the alternator loom that feeds the coil (blue / white on photo attached) and this reads 26 volts. I then checked the negative side of the coil and this read 26 volts - does this sound right ? I also checked the reistance on the coil between the coil positive and negative and got 3 ohms. I've attached a photo of the coil and the wiring set up which is the power to the coil (blue / white) on the coil positive side, the red wire to the pertronix on the postive side of the coil and the black wire to the pertronix on the negative side of the coil. I found a problem with the originall points in that the thin black braided wire that goes from the grommet (with the red power feed from the coil) to the condensor was very frayed and only had 3 strands holding it together which snapped with a very small amount of force. So I've establised that I at least get power to the coil, but no spark at the plugs as of yet. I made sure the spring loaded contact that pushes onto the rotor was working ok. Can I ask should the rotor arm be clear of the magnetic sleeve on the pertronix as my rotor arm does sit ontop of it with no gap. Anyway pic attached , if anybody sees something wrong I would be grateful if you would shout. Thanks again Jeremy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Hi All, thank you all so much for the help and support. Really appreciate it. I have charged the battery full and this gives 26 volts when checked with a voltmeter. I then checked the wire coming off of the alternator loom that feeds the coil (blue / white on photo attached) and this reads 26 volts. I then checked the negative side of the coil and this read 26 volts - does this sound right ? I also checked the reistance on the coil between the coil positive and negative and got 3 ohms. I've attached a photo of the coil and the wiring set up which is the power to the coil (blue / white) on the coil positive side, the red wire to the pertronix on the postive side of the coil and the black wire to the pertronix on the negative side of the coil. I found a problem with the originall points in that the thin black braided wire that goes from the grommet (with the red power feed from the coil) to the condensor was very frayed and only had 3 strands holding it together which snapped with a very small amount of force. So I've establised that I at least get power to the coil, but no spark at the plugs as of yet. I made sure the spring loaded contact that pushes onto the rotor was working ok. Can I ask should the rotor arm be clear of the magnetic sleeve on the pertronix as my rotor arm does sit ontop of it with no gap. Anyway pic attached , if anybody sees something wrong I would be grateful if you would shout. Thanks again Jeremy Are you sure 26 volts ? I cannot see that? Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.