Starter Motor Failing/Failed

[bennem]

My starter motor has decided to give up. A whack, or as much as a whack as you can give it with it hiding down by the exhaust manifold, will get it going but after a couple of quick spins of the engine it stops again. The battery earth gets very hot so I think that the starter has given up rather than there being a dodgy connection to it. So rather than spend time replacing brushes I think it is probably better to replace the thing.

 

So I have a couple of questions what is the best way of replacing the starter motor? Can it be done without dismantling the exhaust or taking the carbs off?

 

Is it worth going for a high torque motor? I have a standard engine.

[MikeF]

My starter motor has decided to give up. A whack, or as much as a whack as you can give it with it hiding down by the exhaust manifold, will get it going but after a couple of quick spins of the engine it stops again. The battery earth gets very hot so I think that the starter has given up rather than there being a dodgy connection to it. So rather than spend time replacing brushes I think it is probably better to replace the thing.

 

So I have a couple of questions what is the best way of replacing the starter motor? Can it be done without dismantling the exhaust or taking the carbs off?

 

Is it worth going for a high torque motor? I have a standard engine.

Befor going to the trouble (and it is) and expense of a new motor I would be looking at electrical terminations, especially earth connections. The one you mentioned from battery and the braided cable (usually bottom front left) for engine. A few minutes with a bit of emery cloth and touch of vaseline may be all that's needed. Then you can get your upgrade or replacement with a clear conscience.

 

MIke

[marvmul]

When the battery earth cable gets hot, either this cable has a bad connection (= high resitance = heath production), or the starter motor is drawing a lot of current : this often means that more and more wires of the starter motor are short shunted (molten isolation). When the starter motor is giving up in this way, the engine will cranking slower when starting it. Nothing is wrong with the standard starter motors. The hi - torque starters can fail too (I know of 2) and often you need more than one attempt to make them mesh with the flywheel teeth (drawing the attention of on-lookers by the embarassing larm of the overrevving starter).

[bennem]

When the battery earth cable gets hot, either this cable has a bad connection (= high resitance = heath production), or the starter motor is drawing a lot of current : this often means that more and more wires of the starter motor are short shunted (molten isolation). When the starter motor is giving up in this way, the engine will cranking slower when starting it. Nothing is wrong with the standard starter motors. The hi - torque starters can fail too (I know of 2) and often you need more than one attempt to make them mesh with the flywheel teeth (drawing the attention of on-lookers by the embarassing larm of the overrevving starter).

 

Thanks Marvmul this is exactly what is happening to my starter. The starter has been getting slower and slower over the last week or so. In reply to Mike F I have been around and cleaned up the engine earth, the battery and the connection to the starter all which failed to improve the situation.

 

I have been admiring the amount of stuff on the drivers side of the engine once again and am hoping that there is some sneaky way of getting the starter out of there without dismantling a load of stuff. Come on there must be an "easy" way........... please tell me there is an easy way.........

[i8pig]

Thanks Marvmul this is exactly what is happening to my starter. The starter has been getting slower and slower over the last week or so. In reply to Mike F I have been around and cleaned up the engine earth, the battery and the connection to the starter all which failed to improve the situation.

 

I have been admiring the amount of stuff on the drivers side of the engine once again and am hoping that there is some sneaky way of getting the starter out of there without dismantling a load of stuff. Come on there must be an "easy" way........... please tell me there is an easy way.........

[i8pig]

[Hi Bennem,

I have fitted a high torque starter to my '62 4 and it was pretty easy. I disconnected the choke linkages and then managed to jiggle the old one out by getting it to the vertical and swearing a bit. The new one is much smaller and lighter so was no problem getting it in. I have removed it and installed it twice with no problem, neither have I had any trouble with the teeth not meshing with the flywheel ring gear. I got mine from Cambridge Motorsport but they all look very similar.

have fun

Steve

[Allan Westbury]

I had a high torque starter (ex-Moss) fitted to my 4A last year. relatively easy to fit, certainly no need to remove carbs or exhaust & I too have had no meshing problems at all. definitely worth the upgrade.

[Tr4Tony]

Hi

 

Hi torque devices seem to be very reliable, just make sure you get the type with the splined in bolt on the top in order that you easily and also with a variety of performance exhausts. Some come supplied with the standard arrangement, requiring two bolts to be slotted in place and this is impossible if you use a performance manifold.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[daveargie]

bennem

I've had my TR4 for about 8 month and it has always started, but usually right away without the motor turning over very much and when it did turn over it was quite slow. This morning it turned over once and then slipped or stopped. When I turned the key again I just got a click. At first I thought the battery was dead but it is not and when I turn the ignition key now I just get a click like a dead battery Is this similar to your experience? Have you done the replacement yet?

 

Other suggestions appreciated.

Thanks

dave

[BrianC]

Dave,

Lynda's TR4A behaves exactly as you describe - starts first time despite desperatley slow cranking speed. We've had the car for 3 1/2 years now and the battery is now over 10 years old! However, whilst it appears to be fully charged, I did wonder whether it really had enough energy to turn the engine or whether the slow turnover was due to poor connections through the solenoid or earths, so last week I connected up a starter pack to see how much difference a new battery would make. Cranking speed was about 10 times as fast so at least the solenoid and connections are good. I suggest you try something similar, or substitute a known good battery. If that makes no difference, then check or bypass the solenoid (lots of other suggestions on the forum if you search for 'starter'). In my experience, the original starters are simple and very relisble and usually only new new brushes and a clean. Well worth doing to save the cost of a high-torque starter, although these are excellent (I have one on my TR3A), especially if you have a high compression cylinder head or 4-branch extractor manifold which makes removal and replacement of the standard starter motor difficult.

[i8pig]

bennem

I've had my TR4 for about 8 month and it has always started, but usually right away without the motor turning over very much and when it did turn over it was quite slow. This morning it turned over once and then slipped or stopped. When I turned the key again I just got a click. At first I thought the battery was dead but it is not and when I turn the ignition key now I just get a click like a dead battery Is this similar to your experience? Have you done the replacement yet?

 

Other suggestions appreciated.

Thanks

dave

 

Dave,

Your problem could be a few things: Make sure your battery terminal connections are good and tight (and clean), same for the motor lead and those to and from the solenoid. If your ammeter shows a big discharge when you turn the key (and hear the click) your motor may be jammed, put the car in gear and rock it, you should hear the gear free itself but you may have to do this a few times! Some starters have a nut on the end of the armature shaft which you can put a spanner on and turn the shaft to free it.

I hope one of these suggestions work, at least they will cost you nowt.

Steve

[bennem]

bennem

I've had my TR4 for about 8 month and it has always started, but usually right away without the motor turning over very much and when it did turn over it was quite slow. This morning it turned over once and then slipped or stopped. When I turned the key again I just got a click. At first I thought the battery was dead but it is not and when I turn the ignition key now I just get a click like a dead battery Is this similar to your experience? Have you done the replacement yet?

 

Other suggestions appreciated.

Thanks

dave

 

Hello Dave,

 

My experience was the starter getting slower and slower over a few weeks until click nothing would happen. I could give it a whack to free it up and it would turn again but not enough to start the car.

 

I have now replaced the starter with a high torque one and the difference is startling. The cranking speed is so much faster making the car easier to start.

 

With the way things were organised in my engine bay, brake servo on offside wing, I did have to detach the accelerator control rod and take the carbs off the manifold to get the old starter out. Getting the nut and washer on that captive top bolt of the Hight Torque starter was "interesting" as well.

 

IMHO the change is worthwhile if your starter has packed in completely. I am not sure I would bother changing my starter on a standard car if it was working fine.

[daveargie]

Hello Dave,

 

My experience was the starter getting slower and slower over a few weeks until click nothing would happen. I could give it a whack to free it up and it would turn again but not enough to start the car.

 

I have now replaced the starter with a high torque one and the difference is startling. The cranking speed is so much faster making the car easier to start.

 

With the way things were organised in my engine bay, brake servo on offside wing, I did have to detach the accelerator control rod and take the carbs off the manifold to get the old starter out. Getting the nut and washer on that captive top bolt of the Hight Torque starter was "interesting" as well.

 

IMHO the change is worthwhile if your starter has packed in completely. I am not sure I would bother changing my starter on a standard car if it was working fine.

 

bennem

This is helpful. "interesting" sounds a little intimidating. I have a left hand drive 4 so I'll see if it that makes it harder or easier. Which high torque unit did you go with?

 

Steve

I'll give all your suggestions a try first...and keep my fingers crossed.

 

thanks

dave

[daveargie]

Dave,

Lynda's TR4A behaves exactly as you describe - starts first time despite desperatley slow cranking speed. We've had the car for 3 1/2 years now and the battery is now over 10 years old! However, whilst it appears to be fully charged, I did wonder whether it really had enough energy to turn the engine or whether the slow turnover was due to poor connections through the solenoid or earths, so last week I connected up a starter pack to see how much difference a new battery would make. Cranking speed was about 10 times as fast so at least the solenoid and connections are good. I suggest you try something similar, or substitute a known good battery. If that makes no difference, then check or bypass the solenoid (lots of other suggestions on the forum if you search for 'starter'). In my experience, the original starters are simple and very relisble and usually only new new brushes and a clean. Well worth doing to save the cost of a high-torque starter, although these are excellent (I have one on my TR3A), especially if you have a high compression cylinder head or 4-branch extractor manifold which makes removal and replacement of the standard starter motor difficult.

 

Brian

Sorry I missed your comments earlier. I'll try this as well and HOPE this works.

dave

[Badfrog]

If you buy a hi-torque , be careful to re-tighten the bolts holding the motor to the adjustable plate. They are not properly secured at the factory. I made this painful experience on the road last week, seeing the bl... thing dangle from its plate and making furious noises when actuated.

These units are Nippondenso motors with specifically machined plate for each type of car and sold by many suppliers. Good price, but average fabrication.

 

Modern gadgets may not always equal safer operation. As the Romans said "caveat emptor".

[bennem]

bennem

This is helpful. "interesting" sounds a little intimidating. I have a left hand drive 4 so I'll see if it that makes it harder or easier. Which high torque unit did you go with?

 

Dave,

 

The unit fitted to my car was supplied by Clive Manvers of Manvers Triumph (http://www.manvers-triumph.com/) and is a Nippondenso unit. Just make sure you buy the right unit for the ring gear on your fly wheel. Bolt on or shrink fit ring gear.

[i8pig]

Dave,

Just a bit of info, if you take the trouble to remove the gearbox tunnel you can attach your nuts and tighten them from inside the car which makes the job a piece of cake. I have an extractor exhaust (Revingtons) with standard carbs and the job was a Sunday afternoon doddle (I don't work fast!)

Steve

[ianc]

Dear Steve,

 

Concerned to hear your nuts dropped off, but glad to hear you managed to re-fix them by removing your gearbox cover.

 

Ian

P.S. Are you a surgeon in your spare time?

[daveargie]

bennem

I've had my TR4 for about 8 month and it has always started, but usually right away without the motor turning over very much and when it did turn over it was quite slow. This morning it turned over once and then slipped or stopped. When I turned the key again I just got a click. At first I thought the battery was dead but it is not and when I turn the ignition key now I just get a click like a dead battery Is this similar to your experience? Have you done the replacement yet?

 

Other suggestions appreciated.

Thanks

dave

 

Thanks all for some good advice. I had convinced myself that I needed a new starter motor but as it turned out that wasn't the case. I tried cleaning up the some connections and the first one I tried was the heavy cable between the solenoid and the starter. It was on quite securely, not loose at all. And when I took it off it looked clean. But when I started cleaning everything with emery paper I found that there was a coating on the connectors and nuts that was almost like varnish...it was difficult to get off. And when I reconnected this cable and turned the key the motor turned over like it was new. So I started up it up and backed out of the garage for a quick celebratory spin....and the brake pedal went to the floor. So back in the garage until I can check that out. Don't you love these things

Dave