JohnG Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 Gents 50yds from home, I've coasted to a stop with no ignition and no indicators??? A quick shove up the incline has her safely on the drive, but now, the questions begin; I have; - '75 plate ('74 built) '6' - luminition ignition (fitted by the PO) - Fuel pump running - No electrical life in the cylinders She has run well and pulled like a train since Clive Manvers sorted out the air and fuel delivery late last year Today she has started on the button, but, 7 miles and 3 starts later, she just died, quietly, with no fuss If it were just ignition, I would eliminate all the usual suspects; - duff coil, duff LT / HT coil leads - dizzy - As a last resort the luminition kit. And I will do this anyway but, indicators as well as ignition, leads me to fear wiring in the steering column or some such gremlin. Can any of you cast a possible light on which gremlins I should persue and the order of pursuit? Grateful thanks as always Quote Link to post Share on other sites
barkerwilliams Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) John, Just re-read yours which states fuel pump is running -oops! If your electrics are standard then power for the distributor and the fuel pump is taken from the same "un-fused" live side of one of the fuses, the fused side does go off to the indicators and wipers. If fuel pump is wired directly to the battery earth terminal then I would suspect battery isolation screw if you have one has worked loose. Is there a voltage on the live feed on the distributor? Alan Edited August 15, 2016 by barkerwilliams Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) John, http://vitessesteve.co.uk/PDF/TR6Wiring.pdf The coil/disy and pump are not fused and share a common feed from the ignition switch, and meet at the fuse that then supplies the indicators. So having the pump working and the the other two dead is odd -perhaps the pump supply has been rerouted so lets ignore it. I would check that with ignition switch on the three white wires on the the fusebox are live ( its the terminal with 3 white ones going in, and 2 green out). If its dead check the white wires going into the back of the ignition switch are all sound. Peter Edited August 15, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 John, http://vitessesteve.co.uk/PDF/TR6Wiring.pdf The coil/disy and pump are not fused and share a common feed from the ignition switch, and meet at the fuse that then supplies the indicators. So having the pump working and the the other two dead is odd -perhaps the pump supply has been rerouted so lets ignore it. I would check that with ignition switch on the three white wires on the the fusebox are live ( its the terminal with 3 white ones going in, and 2 green out). If its dead check the white wires going into the back of the ignition switch are all sound. Peter Peter 11v at the battery 11v at the LT connection to the coil 11v at the fuse box (2 white in 3 green out which is different to your suggestion) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) John, So the ig sw is OK. I'd suspect the Luminition - check by changing back to points. Also Alan's check for disy live. Cant see why the indicators have failed too.- check fuse hasn't blown killing feed to those green wires. Peter Edited August 15, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 John, So the ig sw is OK. I'd suspect the Luminition - check by changing back to points. Also Alan's check for disy live. Cant see why the indicators have failed too.- check fuse hasn't blown killing feed to those green wires. Peter Thanks Peter Checked all 4 fuses - all sound Don't have a set of points and associated hardware. In addition, I think the pegs in the dizzy have been altered so not even sure if the points would fit. Have to get a spare distributor me thinks I do gave a new Powerspark electronic ignition system and it looks to be a reletively simple job to make the swap, but, not today. It's too hot and I am being offered cold beer, so this will sit for a day or 2 whilst I mull over the potential issues It's the failure if the indicators that has me confused if I'm honest It's this that makes me think I have a wiring gremlin. I hope not, but, hope and reality generally don't go hand in hand! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 John, Just re-read yours which states fuel pump is running -oops! If your electrics are standard then power for the distributor and the fuel pump is taken from the same "un-fused" live side of one of the fuses, the fused side does go off to the indicators and wipers. If fuel pump is wired directly to the battery earth terminal then I would suspect battery isolation screw if you have one has worked loose. Is there a voltage on the live feed on the distributor? Alan AlanBosch replacement pump by PO, so, could be wired any which way but loose Checked earth connections where they are obvious and they, plus the battery connections are all good. I have checked the connections to the dizzy (see attached) and non of them appear to have volts running up 'em, they are all 'dead' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Thanks Peter Checked all 4 fuses - all sound Don't have a set of points and associated hardware. In addition, I think the pegs in the dizzy have been altered so not even sure if the points would fit. Have to get a spare distributor me thinks I do gave a new Powerspark electronic ignition system and it looks to be a reletively simple job to make the swap, but, not today. It's too hot and I am being offered cold beer, so this will sit for a day or 2 whilst I mull over the potential issues It's the failure if the indicators that has me confused if I'm honest It's this that makes me think I have a wiring gremlin. I hope not, but, hope and reality generally don't go hand in hand! Check you have live on the other side of the coil with disy wire disconnected. It might be coil gone open circuit. Cheapo coils are often the culprit. Coil resistance should be a few ohms I forget what. If its zero you have found it. Indicator switch on column can be dodgy - very poor contact design. Give the battery a good charge and see if it perks up. Theres no obvious reaon why, with known 11 v at the coil ( the white wires) and a sound fuse, the green wire to the indicators should be dead. However try removing the fuse and replacing it with another.Fuses can fail while appearing to be sound: crud on contacts,or continuity break inside the end-caps. Or it could be failed flasher unit (passenger footwell) - are there volts there? Peter Edited August 15, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) John, http://vitessesteve.co.uk/PDF/TR6Wiring.pdf The coil/disy and pump are not fused and share a common feed from the ignition switch, and meet at the fuse that then supplies the indicators. So having the pump working and the the other two dead is odd -perhaps the pump supply has been rerouted so lets ignore it. I would check that with ignition switch on the three white wires on the the fusebox are live ( its the terminal with 3 white ones going in, and 2 green out). If its dead check the white wires going into the back of the ignition switch are all sound. Peter PeterJust for reference, the fuse box It's still the damned indicators that have me foxed! Still, there's nothing a few beers can't sort out . . . . . .hey ho Edited August 15, 2016 by wjgco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 Check you have live on the other side of the coil with disy wire disconnected. It might be coil gone open circuit. Cheapo coils are often the culprit. Indicator switch on column can be dodgy - very poor contact design. Give the battery a good charge and see if it perks up. Peter In the process of changing the coil as your note appeared. Now . . . . . Call me a silly old thing if you will, but, I didn't not the orientation of the coil before I removed it. I know, I know, basic error of a 3 year old, but, I blame stupidity. My memory suggests + from the fuse box . . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Peter In the process of changing the coil as your note appeared. Now . . . . . Call me a silly old thing if you will, but, I didn't not the orientation of the coil before I removed it. I know, I know, basic error of a 3 year old, but, I blame stupidity. My memory suggests + from the fuse box . . . . John, Yes, battery is negative earth - as per the wiring diagram. So live side of coil is +. Have added edits above re indicators. Peter Dont mention beer - I'm on antibiotics... :( Edited August 15, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 Peter In the process of changing the coil as your note appeared. Now . . . . . Call me a silly old thing if you will, but, I didn't not the orientation of the coil before I removed it. I know, I know, basic error of a 3 year old, but, I blame stupidity. My memory suggests + from the fuse box . . . . Looking at your photo, I think your Luminition box is fed by a short blue wire from the same fuse feeding the indicator green wire. That could be the link in common. Definitely replace that fuse - check the new one is not open circuit. Clean up fuse contacts and spade connectors. Cross fingers. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Check you have live on the other side of the coil with disy wire disconnected. It might be coil gone open circuit. Cheapo coils are often the culprit. Coil resistance should be a few ohms I forget what. If its zero you have found it. Indicator switch on column can be dodgy - very poor contact design. Give the battery a good charge and see if it perks up. Theres no obvious reaon why, with known 11 v at the coil ( the white wires) and a sound fuse, the green wire to the indicators should be dead. However try removing the fuse and replacing it with another.Fuses can fail while appearing to be sound: crud on contacts,or continuity break inside the end-caps. Or it could be failed flasher unit (passenger footwell) - are there volts there? Peter Fuse changed, no joyHaven't checked the flasher unit yet John, Yes, battery is negative earth - as per the wiring diagram. So live side of coil is +. Have added edits above re indicators. Peter Dont mention beer - I'm on antibiotics... :( See attachedVolt meter between battery - and coil + ; 0 volts Volt meter between battery - and coil - ; 10 volts Now I'm confused! When I checked it 40 minutes ago, I got 11 volts between battery - and coil +!! I'm sure I need to have that drink! Edited August 15, 2016 by wjgco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 Alan / Peter Just been out for a 10 minutes blast . . . . . . . 6 cylinders all firing and rarin' to go and indicators showing the way! Original dissy cap and leads, original coil, replacement rotor arm (red for red). New 35 amp fuse. My money is on the fuse! As is often the case, the forum guru's know what they are talking about . . .a fuse that was OBVIOUSLY in good order, replaced on advice from the forum and everything is back up and running. It goes to prove that you literally; cannot believe your eyes Very many thanks for the guidance both, I hope I can pass the help on in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) John, Excellent, a quick result ! From pushing to driving in 5 hours! I had read on the forum a while back about dodgy glass fuses that looked OK ** ....so we have that person to thank ultimately. And your photo was important as it showed your wring has been changed from standard. cheers, Peter ** It might have been this thread: http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/46791-dodgy-glass-fuse/?hl=%2Bglass+%2Bfuse Edited August 15, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 (edited) I'll wager that the offending fuse has a loose end cap which is making intermittent contact with the fuse wire. They test ok but fail intermittently. It happened to me. I'd sort that wiring so that the ignition circuit isn't fused. Edited August 16, 2016 by peejay4A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I'd sort that wiring so that the ignition circuit isn't fused. +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
barkerwilliams Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 John, I agree the ignition should not be on that fused circuit, imagine fast lane of motorway in dark and starts to rain hard, you turn the wipers on and the fuse blows and your engine cuts out and no flashers either to get to the hard shoulder safely. That is gambling with high stakes. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 John, I agree the ignition should not be on that fused circuit, imagine fast lane of motorway in dark and starts to rain hard, you turn the wipers on and the fuse blows and your engine cuts out and no flashers either to get to the hard shoulder safely. That is gambling with high stakes. Alan Alan Nightmare scenario I'm a steam engineer, not a sparks, so would need 1 and 2 syllable guidance to make the change I plan to upgrade the fusebox . . . . . . Soonest! This I CAN do, using the modern medium of photography and calling on lady luck. Any thoughts on this, or similar? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Universlal-Blade-Fuse-Holder-Box-Car-Boat-Motohome-Auto-Cable-6-Way-Cabling-/351237846136?fits=Model%3ATR+6&hash=item51c7683478:g:8EIAAOSwNSxVGS75 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Alan Nightmare scenario 1 and 2 syllable guidance to make the change Connect that short blue wire that runs to the Lumenition to either of the white wires that feed into the fuse its connected to at present. That eliminates the fuse. Leave the green wires as they are.Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted August 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Connect that short blue wire that runs to the Lumenition to either of the white wires that feed into the fuse its connected to at present. That eliminates the fuse. Leave the green wires as they are.Peter Peter Now that, I understand! Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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