URGENT - cry for help

[Guest mrodbert]

All,

 

I have a big TR4 problem   and have completely run out of ideas. Am supposed to be in Yorkshire for the Jubillee Rally this weekend so time running out.     I've posted this to the Rally forum too.

 

The problem is that I don't seem to be getting any current to the ignition key/switch and hence no charge to the starter, etc.

 

The problem first manifested itself yesterday when I was fixing the indicators - loose connection as it turned out. That seemed to introduce a loose connection into the ignition circuit ie the one from the regulator (yes we still have a dynamo) to the ingnition switch and on to everything else. The ignition light was coming on and off (no engine running at this point) and then stopped completely. And now I'm stuck with no ignition light and no ignition.

 

The funny thing is I've checked all the connections to and from the ignition switch and all seems to be fine. If I connect 12v to the starter wire, it starts. If I connect 12v to the connection from the regulator (connection A1) I get ignition working. It doesn't seem to be the regulator as I tried replacing that and it makes no odds. I've also checked from the battery to the regulator and that seems fine too. But when i put a Vmeter across A1 I get no voltage (I was expecting 12v).

 

All of which means I'm getting a bit desparate. So any ideas about how I can get up and running for the weekend gratefully received. Please don't suggest replace it with an alternator as thats not going to happen by Saturday.

 

Thanks in advance,

Mark

(sweating till I get it done)

[John Morrison]

Make sure battery terminals are tight, sometimes its the most obvious.

john

[robgeev]

Or the terminals to the remote solenoid or starter motor may be corroded.

 

Rob.

[Ade-TR4]

Is the ingnition switch Knackered?

[Ade-TR4]

Haven't you had dynamo probs in the past (Targa Rusticana?) is there a dodgy connection in the dynamo?

[Guest mrodbert]

Thanks to all for the helpful suggestions, and I'm extremely grateful for you all taking the time but unfortunately, so far no solutions . Specifically:

 

-  Battery connected fine (yes - first thing I checked)

 

-  Remote solenoid and starter motor seems fine, ie when I connect 12v to the wire from the ignition to starter motor it fires up. (checked this about 12:30am this morning)

 

-  Ignition switch knackered is an excellent suggestion. I was just on the point of assuming this was the only thing it could be and getting on the phone to the TR Shop, when I tried connecting 12v to terminal A1 on the regulator (ie the source of the ignition switch current) and the switch worked fine on all terminals (about 1:30am this morning)

 

-  Dynamo failure. We replaced the dynamo straight after the Targa so I dont think it could be a connection in the dynamo, but I will check connections to the dynamo this evening. But would this cause it not to start?

 

Many, many thanks for all the help, reassuring to know I'm on the right lines. Any further help gratefully received.

 

Thanks,

Mark

[tony13579]

check the other end of the batery earth cable where it joins the body shell.

undo clean off, wire bruh, tighten

also check the earth cable from the engine to the body shell and do the same.

 

 

good luck tony

[lesmcguffog]

has the ignition bulb blown causing a break in the circuit?

 

Les

[Guest mrodbert]

Tony, Les,

 

Many thanks for the suggestions, but in both cases not the answer I'm afraid  

 

a) earth strap is fine. I have checked it and in fact all the devices - lights, indicators, etc are all still working, just not anything connected to the ignition. I have also checked all the circuits back to earth, so they seem to be ok too.

 

Not the ignition light as when I put 12v across that part of the circuit it lights up like a christmas tree.

 

Thanks,

Mark

[jonlar]

Mark, could it be a wire broken within the insulation, disturbed by the indicator repairs?

[Nigel Lay]

A & A1 in the regulator should have a circuit between them as it's only a single loop or wire on the cut out coil. 12v comes from the battery straight to A  BUT via the ampmeter. Suggest open circuit shunt in the ampmeter or open circuit wire from solenoid to meter or from meter to A. I am not going to suggest the obvious 'get you home' senario with a link wire in case there is a short circuit somewhere!  Burnt looms, smouldering wiring can happen!!!!

Hope you solve it - Nigel (with TS952)

[robgeev]

Jonlar has a point,

in my autoelectrician days, ikt was surprising how often brittle old insulation with similiar copper inside caused random headaches. Replace feeds 1 by 1. If the problem seems insurmountable-get help! A fresh view can often find the fault in moments, it is too easy to become centred on one train, when actually the fault is staring you in the face, but chances are it's just a bitch of a problem! Good luck, if you're near Derby, I'll happily have a crack at it.

 

Rob.

[tony13579]

TR4 wiring diagram

 

the curcit seams simple, from the battery(14) to the starter solinoid(13), then through the ammeter(7) in to the control box(5)

 

i am not sure what happens in the control box but it seams to come out on the bottom contact of controll box to the ignition switch (6) the to coil (3) and to distributor (4) then to earth

 

also note that the controll box top terminal apears to go to earth.

 

when you hot wire to the coil it starts so it can't be the coil or distributor. did you start it with the key or the sollinoid button?

 

I suspect the ammeter,control box or the ignition switch or the wire(s) between them

 

it would be safe to bypass the ammeter to dis prove this component as long as you can do this with out touching the body shell with the wiring or ameter casing

 

Do the lights work? and do they make the ammeter move? if so you have power through the controll box , ammeter and to the ignition switch. if not concentrate on this area.

 

Most dodgy connections are the teminals or the first inch of wire which get brittle.

 

 

All the best Tony

[Guest mrodbert]

All

 

Firstly, many many thanks for all your really great help and suggestions. It makes me proud to be a member of the register . Secondly, the car now seems to be sorted     .

 

You all seemed to be getting on the right track, as in the end it came down to a dodgy wire going from terminal A1 on the regulator to the ignition switch, where it disappears round the back of the scuttle. It wasn't the part of the circuit that passes through the ammeter although for some time I thought it was. So of the last batch of replies; Jonlar, Nigel, Rob and Tony you were all right. Nigel - the get home option had crossed my mind and thanks for the tips about the regulator; Rob - many thanks for the offer of hands on help; Tony - thanks for the wiring chart and the thoughts.

 

Of course I haven't been able to effect a permanent fix as its all in the depths of the loom, but I've managed to secure it in a way that means its ok for a while. What made diagnosis even more obscure was a corroded connection in the fusebox that stopped the rear and side lights from working, which I have also fixed.

 

I think this problem all stems from a lighting problem we had a few years ago on Le Jog that ended up with a disintegrating light switch and a short going right back to the regulator. My fiddling with the indicator circuit must have disturbed something that was damaged then - or maybe its just old. But I still don't understand why Triumph designed the circuit in such a way that an unfused circuit goes right from the regulator to the headlights - seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

All of which leaves me with a few outstanding questions:

 

1) How difficult is it to re-loom a TR4, as the 40 year old circuitry is proving more and more unreliable after 4 years of rallying.

 

2) Does anyone know where I can get a description of what each of the terminals in the regulator does. I've seen descriptions of how the internals work, but none that describes what the outputs are.

 

Once again,

 

Many, many thanks to all.

Mark

 

 <-- Thats me at 11pm last night

[tony13579]

I have a diagram showing the circuitry for the regulator

It is in the blue workshop manual section 6.105 fig2 drawing no 6gy11

I will scan it and e-mail it to you (remind me if I forget)

 

(A) GOES TO NEG ON THE BATTERY     …..brown white

(A1) GOES TO IGNITION SWITCH           …..brown blue

(F) GOES TO THE OUTER COILS OF THE DYNAMO  brown green

(D) GOES TO THE INNER (COILS ?) OF THE DYNAMO AND GROUND  brown yellow

(E) GOES TO EARTH   black

 

 

I am very pleased that you are up and running.

I have not done a rewire yet, that delight is to come when the body work is finished.

[GSKTR4]

Secondly, the car now seems to be sorted     .

Phew! Great news, was getting worried there! See you Sunday then  

[Guest mrodbert]

Tony - Thanks for the very helpful description on the regulator front. I have the workshop manual, but couldn't find that info, but it was late at night when I was looking. So thanks again for taking the time to help out.

 

Andy - YOU were getting worried. Wednesday night/ Thursday morning I was at my wits end. I was right on the verge of either a) tidying up the car and calling the RAC "No officer I haven't been trying to fix it myself. It was just like that when I tried to start it" or convincing my driver for the weekend (not Jon, but Nigel this time) that we should do the rally in his immaculate virtually concours, tripmeter-less Sunbeam Tiger, that he only ever takes out on sunny days when there isn't an "r" in the month. Neither option seemed particularly attractive.

 

Anyway all        now.

 

See you and Ade Sunday,

Mark

 

The car in front may be a Toyota, but the one behind flashing its lights is a rally car

[Nigel Lay]

Hi Mark, glad it's all sorted.  Electrics/electronics have been my life so they hold no fear for me. Pity you are not closer (North Devon) as I would certainly give you a hand to fit a new loom. It's not difficult, just takes twice as long as you think it will. The problems are all to do with the 'ends' of the wires where they go into the light clusters, wiper motor, brake light switch etc. etc. You spend just as much time remaking/replacing corroded terminals, getting things to undo and so on as you do replacing the loom.

If I can be of any help let me know

Have a good weekend, take a couple of candles in case the lights go out!! (Mozilla won't let me put up smilies).

Nigel

[rudi]

Mark, take a look on the TR3 forum and the topic "more fuses" started by Menno on the April 6. Especially when you are in rallying I would go all the way for a complete new and upgraded wiring. Good luck at the rally and with the re-wiring, Rudi.

[GSKTR4]

Mark, make sure you have a look under my bonnet on Sunday - just had the whole front end rewired, with fuses/relays put where the voltage regulator used to be - makes much more sense on a rally car. And yes, it probably is about time you got an alternator!!

[jonlar]

Mark, pleased to see you're sorted (albeit a temporary repair!) - Good Luck on the run, let us know how you all get on.

[dykins]

Guys

 

I've been watching this topic over the last 2/3 days. Unfortunately, my car electrical knowledge is next to nil, so couldn't really suggest anything worthwhile to help Mark.

 

I'm really glad he's now sorted.

 

All I wanted to add is...

 

Doesn't all the advice and offers of help just show what a great club the TR Register is?

 

Doesn't it make you proud to be a member?

 

Regards

 

Peter

1963 TR4 ADC815A

[GSKTR4]

Doesn't all the advice and offers of help just show what a great club the TR Register is?

 

Doesn't it make you proud to be a member?

YES!!      

[Tr4Tony]

Mark

 

I suspect that this could be the voltage control box (big black thing on the bulkhead) - I have had this happen and what happens is the coils inside break down and fail to energise - you need a new one and its a 5 minute job to fix.

 

If you are in the RAC and getting short of time 'break down' and ring them - works for me when im really in the sh** and about to do a rally !!!

 

let me know if I can help - im only an hour away.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[Guest mrodbert]

Tony - It wasn't the regulator. I had a spare one from the Targa and tried it out, but it did turn out to be the wiring.

 

To everyone else who offered help and advice - Many Thanks to all of you. I was amazed at the number of people who replied to my thread, as well as those who mailed me separately and came up and said hello on Sunday. It really makes me glad to be a member of the club.

 

Cheers,

Mark