Rookie Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks for the info. I think I'll go and have a look at this car - though it's a long journey. If it is rust free it could be worth £35k, I agree, but it's possible that the vendor is in no hurry to sell and will wait for the advertised price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks for the info. I think I'll go and have a look at this car - though it's a long journey. If it is rust free it could be worth £35k, I agree, but it's possible that the vendor is in no hurry to sell and will wait for the advertised price. Take somebody with you then who knows exactly what to look for and dont forget as Paul says to factor in the cost of re-rubbering everything. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Harvey Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Rookie, As Stuart says, everything needs to be carefully checked but this car does seem quite possibly 'right' to me. There were only around 3,000 original home market 4As and very, very few survive completely intact. The door top crash pads on this car are completely correct, unique to the 4A, and that detail alone is a rare survival. The spec - surrey top, overdrive and wire wheels is also exactly what the top of the market wants. You can get a search to confirm the exact spec of the car as delivered new which should all tie up. If the paint is original then the whole car must have been looked after very well indeed, and that again is a great reassurance. If the paint is not original, much caution is needed because the work has been done well enough to signify a clever hand at work. As long as you maintain the car properly, I do not think any other spec will hold value as well as this. Many of us may regret the high prices, but they are not going away - they just ain't making any more originals! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure about prices at the moment. I remember the last classic car bubble (in the 90s) when I had a pristine Lotus Elan Sprint (completely original except for new galvanised chassis) which I'd bought for £1200 in 1974. Suddenly everywhere I parked it people would come up and ask about it and some would offer to buy it for what seemed ridiculous amounts of money (£15000 ish). Auction values were through the roof too with some fetching more than £20k. I didn't want to sell it at the time. When I eventually decided to sell it - I was going abroad in 1999 - the market had collapsed. I eventually sold it for £6000 after many months. The classic car market is fragile for all except the best of the best. It's on a high at the moment because interest rates are low and people don't want their money in banks but, like the stock market, it can change. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR4Geoff Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I have been told by someone who has seen the car and is in the business of repairing/restoring Classics (TRs in particular), that this 4A has been resprayed at some point. Geoff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I have been told by someone who has seen the car and is in the business of repairing/restoring Classics (TRs in particular), that this 4A has been resprayed at some point. Geoff So not that original then! Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Yes. It's hard to believe that a 1967 car could be genuinely "original". In my experience even modern cars start rusting from the day they're made and are showing significant effects within 5 years. I don't see how a 1967 car could survive without work of some kind - unless it was kept in humidity free bubble. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Harvey Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Rookie, Geuninely original cars do very occasionally turn up, but the current massive price hike for them means there's a new industry in fake patina and 'barn find' mania. Genuinely original factory paint is particularly hard to discern, but an expert can work it out. I would not hold it against this car if it has had a respray, but it does affect price, and it certainly means a very cautious approach to all the other 'original' claims. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 You would be surprised what a true paint expert can hide Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 I notice that there's another nice TR4A for sale at Silverstone Auctions next auction. It's advertised on classiccarsforsale.co.uk. I've tried to include the link but it won't let me paste anything for some reason. It all looks in good condition, but it's not presented as original. The seats in particular have been replaced - which always worries me because new seats always seem to restrict the room in the interior. The auction estimate is £31k to £35k, so if it hits the upper estimate it'll be close to the Camberley car after the 6% buyer's premium. Might be an interesting test of the market. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Harvey Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 http://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1967-triumph-tr4-a-surrey Different animal altogether. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 £31K, £35K, £39K . . . . . anyone considering asking or paying that sort of money for a TR4A needs more than his bumps feeling. Dream on. Then look what else you could get for the money. Comprehensive reality check might be a good start, as in look for 4-letter words above the eyebrows in the shaving mirror. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shuggie159 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) You get a coach built body, and a lot of bolt-on after market goodies, but suprised you don't get the stainless hard top finisher. Guess what I've got one kicking round the garage. I'll sell him one for... hmmm let's see... any one prepared to spend that sort of money... say a monkey! Riddle me this Batman. - Where does the rocker box breather go? I prefer a truely unspoilt car. You know the type that you can drive a coach and horses through the door gaps.. Now that's propa original. Edited February 11, 2014 by shuggie159 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Is it me or does the windscreen washer bottle sit a bit high on the red one? And it has 6 cylinders too apparently. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Harvey Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Rookie, You should get a really, really nice car for under £30k. Either properly original or properly restored. The car that started this thread MIGHT have been worth more if it was completely and utterly original - genuine low mileage etc. You will not harm the value of a truly original car by using it as the manufacturer intended provided you look after it properly, and provided you do not rack up too many miles. Such a car carries its patina and battle scars with pride. A totally restored car carries high value only for the perfect condition, and so regular use can only harm its intrinsic value. All of these cars are good value when it comes to depreciation compared to any new car of any kind. Any of these cars can provide a proper driving experience. The choice is up to you, but if I had £30k for a TR4A I would keep looking for the real deal original. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 I wouldn't personally be expecting accuracy or authenticity from any auctioneer, let alone honesty or integrity. Caveat emptor rules OK. And I certainly wouldn't be buying a car at auction - there's a reason it's been sent to the block rather than sold out of a showroom. But there's one born every minute. Just my opinion, of course. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shuggie159 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Yes it's got every thing... There's what looks like a cigarette lighter (they're probably discribed as charging points these days), and I think there's even a hint that it might even have the ubiquitus non closing boot lid. All the mod cons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Race Retro is the kind of event that attracts folks with more money than sense, and they do say a fool and his money are soon parted. Buyer's premium I'd suggest is more likely to be 12.5% than 6% on hammer, at most auctions anyway, these good chaps have a lifestyle to maintain . . . . and the seller's premium does seem to have drifted downwards into single figures as the buyer's has risen to double. Plus VAT and all the other little extras of course. That's cars . . . . automobilia is more likely 17.5% buyer's and 10% seller's . . . . plus the extras and VAT on top . . . . All of which makes eBay terms look as cheap as chips. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 "You should get a really, really nice car for under £30k" Yes, I agree. I may go and look at these cars but it'll depend on the weather conditions - there's a lot of flooding at the moment where I am in the We(s)t Country. It may be better to buy privately because it's always cheaper. I know from my own experience of selling my old cars that people are very reluctant to pay large amounts of money to private sellers. I'm in no great rush to buy. A lot of the fun is in looking for the car I reckon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR NIALL Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Have you tried Marko (classis marks) down in Norfolk,He only Deals in the Best TRs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stargazergs Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi Shuggie159 Liked the pic of your car, I couldn't agree with you more a classic car should be driven and enjoyed if you become to scared to scratch it put it in a museum. When I finish my 4a its going to be driven and enjoyed and as I'm very rural and all the farmers have cows round here there is no way I can be too precious with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Horner Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 It seems to me that there are very few cars for sale privately these days (that goes for most classics now) and thus the dealers have very little competition. How many sell at these prices is another question. I bought a very good sound car in July last year for about £11k and still see dealers cars for sale now that were for sale then at ridiculous prices ( in my view). I agree with Alec that the prices are just silly for what they are. Still, low interest rates, relatively affluent retired individuals who are reliving their youth- a perfect storm for inflated values of cars of the 60s! I know it's just me but I also fail to see why someone would pay the silly sums for e types and astons. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 " I know it's just me but I also fail to see why someone would pay the silly sums for e types and Astons. " Come on Bob, put the distance glasses on . . . . you can usually recognise the owners visually, either by the lettering stamped boldly above the eyebrows, or the more extreme examples flaunt a second organ above the bridge of the nose . . . . Of course these chaps prefer to buy from dealers, and prefer to sell via dealers too, as this avoids the embarrassment of a queue of potential sellers and/or buyers patiently explaining to our motoring emperors that they are devoid of apparel whilst possessed of unnecessary appendages . . . . There are plenty of old cars bought and sold privately, but the internet has improved personal communication hugely, and there's less need to publicly advertise cars for sale privately when the word can be spread quickly and efficiently round the grapevine at minimal cost . . . . Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Horner Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Take your point to a degree but I do think the dealers step in when values increase. Not sure if that's chicken or egg. My theory is that when cars rise in value, dealers inflate the price massively. Dealers then speculate by buying in private cars at high prices. Private sellers only sell to dealers who offer high prices and off you go.....until **** hits fan - only, just like the rest of the economy, **** seems to take longer these days to hit said fan. The question is, is it on its way? The fact that Naked imperial rulers are not spotted very quickly these days doesn't help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Indeed Bob, as values increase the market becomes more dealer orientated. From a dealer viewpoint, I can't see their finding much joy in cheaper classics - demanding buyers expecting more than their money's worth, toing and froing quoting trades description, consumer standards etc etc. You need to make a few grand per car just to cover warranty claims and aggro factor, selling a car for £9K and taking a grand out of it won't keep many wolves from the door. I wouldn't be wanting to make less than a gross £4K out of reselling a classic, minimum, so anything under £20K is unlikely to cut too much mustard. Once you're past the £30K mark, it all begins to look more like realistic. Especially if you consider that a £30K hammer price at auction is realistically approaching £35K cost to the buyer, and the seller is netting rather less than £27K. That's quite sufficient margin to make a commission deal look attractive . . . . But yes, it's all well and good talking up the values of TRs ad nauseam, but the real benefit to owners current and future is limited . . . . . What we achieve is creating a price point at which selling prices rise as a result of cars being sold by dealers, but previous owners are not necessarily seeing a commensurate increment in their personal return. Instead, a potential living for dealers is being created. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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