Revington championship

[V8again]

All links to this on their website no longer exist, is this now closed ?

[Alec Pringle]

I believe it is now closed, but all the necessary is available from the excellent Roger McEwen, whose details you'll find here

 

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/comp_news.php

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[V8again]

I believe it is now closed, but all the necessary is available from the excellent Roger McEwen, whose details you'll find here

 

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/comp_news.php

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

 

On the ball as usual, thanks Alec

 

Now a tricky one, catch 22 "classes"

 

I was told by my freind rallying in this type of car that it should be in Sports Libre cars over 2000cc but some events require a National A or Race licence for this class, I need 2 events to get from B to A, can I get in modified road going, can someone clarify my position please.

 

Chris

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Chris,

 

Just have a chat with Roger !

 

The TR Championship attitude has traditionally been one of enabling potential TR competitors to be included, not excluded. There have been occasions when a certain degree of flexibility of interpretation, as you might say, has been applied to newcomers with cars already up and running.

 

Established competitors tend to be fairly generous in how they regard newbies, looking at the overall potential of the car and the driver's experience (or lack of) rather than being picky about relatively minor details that aren't quite in line with the rules as writ. There are limits of course - that TR6 telescopic rear conversion might well be seen as a lever arm shocker, all the chaps having conveniently having left their glasses elsewhere . . . . but a quartet of twin choke 45DCOEs atop a V8 are unlikely to be mistaken for a brace of 1.75" SUs !!

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, there was always an unwritten understanding that a newcomer car would gradually evolve into line, and the quicker it went the sooner it was expected to toe the line !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[V8again]

Hi Chris,

 

Just have a chat with Roger !

 

The TR Championship attitude has traditionally been one of enabling potential TR competitors to be included, not excluded. There have been occasions when a certain degree of flexibility of interpretation, as you might say, has been applied to newcomers with cars already up and running.

 

Established competitors tend to be fairly generous in how they regard newbies, looking at the overall potential of the car and the driver's experience (or lack of) rather than being picky about relatively minor details that aren't quite in line with the rules as writ. There are limits of course - that TR6 telescopic rear conversion might well be seen as a lever arm shocker, all the chaps having conveniently having left their glasses elsewhere . . . . but a quartet of twin choke 45DCOEs atop a V8 are unlikely to be mistaken for a brace of 1.75" SUs !!

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, there was always an unwritten understanding that a newcomer car would gradually evolve into line, and the quicker it went the sooner it was expected to toe the line !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

Will do, Thanks again

[pjsquire]

The TR Championship attitude has traditionally been one of enabling potential TR competitors to be included, not excluded

 

Glad you specify TR's in particular and not Triumphs in general as this would have been a total untruth as we all know.

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Patrick,

 

I'm well aware from your postings last year that you were not happy with the way in which the Championship regulations had evolved in relation to your GT6. I'm not familiar with all the detail of that particular situation, so I'll refrain from further comment re your car.

 

My posts related quite simply to Chris and his TR7V8, and the traditional Championship attitude towards potential TR competitors. Your individual position, or that of Triumphs other than TRs, didn't even enter my mind. Not relevant to Chris' enquiry.

 

In any case, it is a TR Register / Revington TR Championship. 30-odd years ago it started out as a specifically TR series, and I'm not convinced that there ever was any merit in opening it up to a wider range of Triumphs . . . . that seemed to me at the time, and still does, potentially a bit like treading on the toes of other Triumph clubs ?

 

Apart from which, I had a little experience of hillclimbing GT6s in my youth - given the same engine in any TR against a GT6, the TR is unlikely to see the GT6 for dust. The big fella must surely be hauling another 300kgs kerb weight against a GT6 ?

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[pjsquire]

Hi Patrick,

 

In any case, it is a TR Register / Revington TR Championship. 30-odd years ago it started out as a specifically TR series, and I'm not convinced that there ever was any merit in opening it up to a wider range of Triumphs . . . . that seemed to me at the time, and still does, potentially a bit like treading on the toes of other Triumph clubs ?

 

Apart from which, I had a little experience of hillclimbing GT6s in my youth - given the same engine in any TR against a GT6, the TR is unlikely to see the GT6 for dust. The big fella must surely be hauling another 300kgs kerb weight against a GT6 ?

 

 

Since 2002 or so, the championship was open to GT6's in class 3 A/B provided they complied with the mechanical regulations as existing. Bear in mind there is no minimum weight for any car competing in that class. It is true that in standard form The GT6 weighs 103Kg less than for instance a TR4 - not 300Kg as you suggest. As the GT6 has a fixed roof and separate chassis, it is not easy to lose much weight if you keep the car in a sensible form. My Car is road registered and MOT'd unlike several of the TR's that compete. I competed against a TR7 that had been incredibly lightened and was most certainly not fit for the road with no lights etc.

 

It cannot be treading on the toes of of other Triumph clubs as no other series run by a Triumph club exists in the UK, there simply would not be enough interest to warrant another such series.It was always my hope the Triumph movement could follow the example of for instance the MG clubs where all models of all ages are welcome in their speed series and the marque is not fragmented as our is in that respect.

 

With regard to the TR not seeing a GT6 for dust, you are ignoring the inherent handling difficulties of the GT6 with its nose-heaviness and the dreaded swing axles. You will know that suspension pickup points are limited in the regulations so the latter limitation cannot be overcome entirely. Also, please note the TR7 sprint is allowed in that class with its very much more tunable and modern engine. You could argue that's just as unfair, but then I suppose it is a TR (of sorts!)

 

My motive in 'bleating' on about this matter 'ad nauseum' is purely with constructive and positive intentions for the reasons stated above. I must add I do find it very difficult to accept what has taken place, the manner in which it was expedited, the inference there is insufficient interest from 'others' and the incourtesy shown to those affected by this decision provided by the lack of even a semblance of any explanation. In my view, it reflects badly on the TR Register club who in effect put their name to this series.

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Patrick,

 

thankyou for the entertaining rejoinder ! Makes a pleasant change to have a lively discussion . . .

 

I'm sorry to read that you consider the TR7 in the vein "I suppose it is a TR (of sorts!)". I felt much the same way the first time I drove one, 1975, but hey I was being paid to pedal it round Goodwood, who was I to complain ? I rather thought we'd all moved on since then. Perhaps not, sadly.

 

Weight wise, I was really only comparing 6-pots. It must be 40-odd years ago that I was playing teenage silly beggars with a GT6PI and a TR5PI, so my recollections of technical minutiae can't be entirely relied upon. As best I recall, the hillclimb regs in those days took manufacturers published unladen weight figures as a basis. Memory suggests that a GT6, the Mk1 that we were running, was listed around 1900lbs. A TR5 with hardtop (preferred at the time, stiffened up the shell a bit) was nearer 2300, and the heavier TR6 close to 2500lbs with tin top in place. So the big fella was hauling another 600lbs, OK that's 10% less than the 300kgs that I suggested. Even so, the TR was carrying a 30% weight penalty, and against that the 2.5PI engine was gaining only 15-20% power at most against the injected 2-litre. Given the mods available at the time, I can't accept that the TR6 had any real handling advantage over the GT6. Any road up, the TRs never got near us . . . .

 

As regards the differences betwen roadgoing modified cars and those modified cars built specifically for the track . . . . the technical regs are as writ, it's the competitor's choice as to how he works within them. Whatever series and whatever discipline, it's unrealistic to compare roadgoing and non-roadgoing cars - the latter are always likely to have the edge. For heaven's sake, I spent several seasons as a professional team manager in serious racing, a large part of my job was ensuring that we exploited the rule book !!

 

I'll stick to my guns in respect of the TR Register Championship - nothing wrong with having an exclusively TR Championship or Series in my book. Having said that, I've also been in favour of an all-model Triumph and Standard series, something I first proposed back in 1978-79. For whatever reason, historical inter-club bickering more than anything else I suppose, a more general Standard Triumph series has always been no more than a pipe dream. There's no shortage of potential competitors, if appropriate classifications and events were developed - that was my feeling more than 30 years ago, and I reckon it could still be a goer.

 

As for the internal politics or whatever of the Sprint and Hillclimb Championship - as previously explained, my knowledge of these is confined to what I've read on this Forum, and it's not appropriate for me to engage in further discussion without detailed knowledge of the whole saga. So I won't ! And in any case, it's irrelevant to Chris' enquiries, which is where this topic started . . . .

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[pjsquire]

Hello Alec

 

My attitude to the TR7 was I am afraid irretreivably affected by my situation as MD of a Triumph distributorship, when first trying to sell this car against a backdrop of industrial anarchy then trying to defend its appalling quality and reliability. No, I will never be able to move on as you put it. Nuf said?

 

Regarding comparative weights, they are as I understand it: GT6 863 Kg, TR3 904Kg, TR4 966Kg, TR4a 1016Kg, TR5 1030Kg, TR7 1048Kg, TR6 1130Kg. All these models plus the TR7 would have been eligible for class 3 A/B. When you refer to the 'big fella', it is not obvious (to me at any rate) that you refer only to the 6-cyl TR.

 

You may well have been a 'professional team manager in serious racing' in earlier times, I think it likely also that you were a very wily politician in a previous life! You seem to have expanded the discussion in all directions whilst carefully avoided answering the points I raise and meantime substantially adjusting what you said yourself. You then finish by saying we are off topic and you are not prepared to engage in further discussion in any case!

 

However, I do have to agree the discussion is now well off-topic and I do not think in any case it is fair to expect you to comment on or try to explain why GT6's were removed from the championship after many years, especially when you were not even involved in the discussions that led to the decision (as far as I am aware). I do think it very telling that those who were involved in the decision are keeping 'stum' and entirely refraining from defending their position, let alone trying to explain the reasons for it. The only conclusion one can come to is that they can't.

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Patrick,

 

trying to sell TR7s in the latter 1970s, OK I can well understand your frustrations, supply was appalling and quality control worse . . . . agreed !

 

Agreed also that I didn't make it clear that I was comparing TR6 and GT6. Weight wise we're pretty darn close, GT6 and TR6, no difference of opinion there.

 

Politician ? You cannot be serious - I've been told often enough that diplomacy is not a quality I can offer !!

 

I'm not sure what I've altered . . . unless you're meaning my reference to an all-Triumph series ? That I've only ever proposed as something quite separate to a TR series. I happen to have a fondness for Triumphs other than TRs, not shared by all TR owners.

 

We've moved away for Chris' original enquiries, sure. Digression is routine on Forum, not a problem as such.

 

I'm not refusing to discuss rule changes or what may have been behind them _ I've discussed enough rule changes in years gone by when I was a steward for the Championship. What I said was that it's not appropriate for me to discuss in more detail the particular decisions to which you refer - simply because I don't know the background. And no, I had no involvement in discussions re GT6s, it's quite some years since I've been party to any discussions regarding the Championship rules.

 

Having already pointed out that I'd have preferred an all-TR series, I quite accept that GT6s have been included for many years. Would I have peremptorily barred them all of a sudden ? No, I can't think of any reason that I would, not unless they were to be adequately included in A N Other alternative series.

 

As it happens, I wrote the original TR sprint regs in 1977 - with input from others, of course, but the responsibility was ultimately mine, right or wrong. I've never agreed with a democratic evolution of rules by the competitors - I've seen that go wrong too often, in too many areas of motor and other sports. There has to be an objective overview, and it's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that of the competitors themselves. Someone else has to take the responsibility, and carry the can. That's just my opinion !

 

As for those who were involved in the decision making to which you refer . . . maybe they don't read the Forum, or perhaps just don't feel the need to defend their position, as you put it ? I really don't know, simply because I haven't discussed the topic with any of them ! What more can I say ?

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[pjsquire]

Having already pointed out that I'd have preferred an all-TR series, I quite accept that GT6s have been included for many years. Would I have peremptorily barred them all of a sudden ? No, I can't think of any reason that I would, not unless they were to be adequately included in A N Other alternative series.

 

 

Thank you Alec. It seems we are agreed on the only point I raised, that being to question the statement 'the TR Championship has traditionally been one of enabling potential competitors to be included, not excluded'. Yes if it's a TR, no if it's any other form of Triumph it seems.

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Patrick,

 

in the first instance I suggested that

 

"The TR Championship attitude has traditionally been one of enabling potential TR competitors to be included, not excluded."

 

I wrote only in relation to TR competitors - I made no reference to other Triumph models, nor to Triumphs in general. Your own subsequent post extended the discussion.

 

And, for the record, no I do not agree with your statement that "Glad you specify TR's in particular and not Triumphs in general as this would have been a total untruth as we all know."

 

We are discussing a TR Championship, not an all-Triumph series.

 

Yes I have reservations about the apparent recent exclusion of GT6s, but on the other hand I had reservations about their inclusion in the first place . . . .

 

As I've explained before, I'm not going to pass any judgements on the detail of the internal decision making of the Sprint and Hillclimb Championship. Firstly because I am not in possession of the facts, as opposed to your own opinions, and secondly because the decision making is the prerogative of the organisers and competitors within the Championship rules as written.

 

Yes I realise that you have a significant sense of grievance, which may or may not be justified. In fairness to all involved in the Championship, perhaps I should point out that I cannot recall any similar occurrence in the past.

 

Meanwhile, after two lengthy airings of your views some months apart, this particular topic has probably run its course as far as Forum is concerned - especially as neither other competitors nor spectators have felt inclined to contribute online. Presumably any further comments might best be addressed to the TR Register management and/or to the MSA ?

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[pjsquire]

Alec. Politician in a former life possibly, but most definitely not a diplomat (Your line: -

Yes I have reservations about the apparent recent exclusion of GT6s, but on the other hand I had reservations about their inclusion in the first place . . .

is classic!). To suggest I contact the MSA or the Register concerning the banning of GT6’s from the championship is an insult to my intelligence. The TR drivers and/or the sponsor were responsible for the decision and of course have every right to do so. However, what I found hurtful about the decision was that it was taken for reasons never explained to those affected, not even informally.

 

To be honest Alec, I am not sure why you bothered to debate the matter at such length in this Forum when you were not involved in any way in the decision-making process. Was it some form of obscure wind-up?

 

Forgive me for reminiscing but I have had a long business and personal relationship with Standard Triumph and its products. My first car was an Alexander-tuned Standard 8, my transport when I worked only yards from ‘Buttercup’ when she was being stored in a corner of the parts dept at P J Evans in Birmingham long after everyone lost interest in it, even Ken Rawlins its then owner. I rallied a TR3a, honeymooned at Le Mans specifically to watch the Spitfires, hillclimbed an indecently quick Vitesse 2 litre with which I held various course records in the late sixties, organising road shows with Gerry Marshall and Tony Pond (both real characters), borrowing a works Group 2 Dolly Sprint for a week and numerous other (for me) memorable occasions, all whilst running my family business, a Triumph distributor.

 

You have brought it home to me that my emotional involvement with the marque as a whole over so many years is clouding my judgement. Accordingly, I have now sold my lovely old TR3a, cancelled my direct debit to the Register and you won’t have to read any more of my bleating.

 

Farewell Alec and the TR Register. It would seem my pipe-dream of a united and cohesive Triumph marque movement is as far from being a reality as ever judging by the kind of parochial and egotistical views as typified by your posts. Please don’t bother to reply.

[Dave McDonald]

Patrick

I have followed the increasingly acrimonious correspondence between yourself and another member with interest.

I think our paths may have crossed previously with your occasional participation in the TR Register track race Championship at Castle Combe in the mid 2000s? I race a Navy Blue TR6.

What a sad end to your obviously long time relationship with the Triumph marque generally. I obviously don't know, or want to know, the background to all this. Furthermore, I do not want to become embroiled in the issues that you raise.

From what you say, it would seem appropriate for you to just step back and reconsider before you sever contact altogether.

Think again Patrick.

 

Dave McDonald

[boysey]

Alec. Politician in a former life possibly, but most definitely not a diplomat (Your line: - is classic!). To suggest I contact the MSA or the Register concerning the banning of GT6’s from the championship is an insult to my intelligence. The TR drivers and/or the sponsor were responsible for the decision and of course have every right to do so. However, what I found hurtful about the decision was that it was taken for reasons never explained to those affected, not even informally.

 

To be honest Alec, I am not sure why you bothered to debate the matter at such length in this Forum when you were not involved in any way in the decision-making process. Was it some form of obscure wind-up?

 

Forgive me for reminiscing but I have had a long business and personal relationship with Standard Triumph and its products. My first car was an Alexander-tuned Standard 8, my transport when I worked only yards from ‘Buttercup’ when she was being stored in a corner of the parts dept at P J Evans in Birmingham long after everyone lost interest in it, even Ken Rawlins its then owner. I rallied a TR3a, honeymooned at Le Mans specifically to watch the Spitfires, hillclimbed an indecently quick Vitesse 2 litre with which I held various course records in the late sixties, organising road shows with Gerry Marshall and Tony Pond (both real characters), borrowing a works Group 2 Dolly Sprint for a week and numerous other (for me) memorable occasions, all whilst running my family business, a Triumph distributor.

 

You have brought it home to me that my emotional involvement with the marque as a whole over so many years is clouding my judgement. Accordingly, I have now sold my lovely old TR3a, cancelled my direct debit to the Register and you won’t have to read any more of my bleating.

 

Farewell Alec and the TR Register. It would seem my pipe-dream of a united and cohesive Triumph marque movement is as far from being a reality as ever judging by the kind of parochial and egotistical views as typified by your posts. Please don’t bother to reply.

 

 

 

Hello Patrick

 

You are not alone in your wish to see an all encompassing Triumph club and for one, I have tried to get other Triumphs to be able to compete in the Sprint/Hillclimb Championship. The biggest argument thrown back appears to be the actual mechanics of organisation, and as a newer 'part time' competitor, I don't have a lot of influence. I can tell you though that I am not alone in wanting to see more types of Triumphs competing, and I feel it is the responsibility of the drivers to find a way. I am only a member of the TR register to compete, I would much prefer to see a collective club for Triumphs, which could be so much stronger than all the collective parts currently in existence.

 

See you soon

 

Boysey