Rod1883 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Hi, I'm looking for some advice. My 2 is being rebuilt and I'm fitting a Girling rear axle and later front disc/caliper assemblies. I was thinking about fitting the separate Girling master cylinders but I understand that this requires new pedal assembly, pocket plate and bracket. I had tried to source these but was recently outbid on E-bay! Hence I'm now thinking about leaving the master cylinder as Lockheed. I believe, from a very reliable source, that the original Lockheed master cylinder can be used with the Girling brake set up but was looking for further confirmation and/or advice from anyone that has done this. Thanks, Rod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
T Robinson Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Hi, I have just completed a rebuild of an early 3 and have kept the Lockheed master cylinder whilst adding a Girling rear axle and disc brakes up front. No problems at all. However, I would recommend using a Lockheed slave cylinder for the clutch in order to maintain the correct pedal pressure. Regards, Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 From 1963 to 1969, I owned a TR2 which had been converted to discs. It used the Lockheed master cylinder and I had no problems. However, I know that Trevor & Sarah Parker had a similar arrangement on their TR2 (now sold to Mike & Jan May) until they had a leak on the clutch hydraulics on a rally. This emptied the master cylinder and left them without brakes! After that, they converted to separate master cylinders. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Lay Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 If the lockheed master cylinder is original like the one on my 2 it has a web up the middle so that if for example the cutch slave cylinder 'lets go' there will still be enough fluid in it to maintain the brakes. I don't know if the pattern lockheed cylinders have this web. Nigel (with TS952) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Nigel - you are correct in saying that there should be a web across the middle of the Lockheed master cylinder, in order to ensure that sufficient fluid remains for the brakes. However, let's imagine a TR2 equipped with disc brakes, with a leak on the clutch hydraulics and competing in a rally. Having reduced the level in the master cylinder to that of the barrier, two things can happen: 1 - with the increased rate of disc pad wear (competition), the level on the "brake" side of the barrier will fall more rapidly than in normal touring use; 2 - in fast cornering (competition), fluid might be flushed over the barrier from the brake to the clutch side, then lost by the leak in the clutch system. The result could be that the brake piston in the master cylinder is no longer completely submerged in fluid, so air could be drawn into the brake system. I agree that the risk is small and one could put a fluid level detector onto the master cylinder, if one were really concerned. I don't know the exact circumstances in Trevor and Sarah's case, only what Trevor told me at this year's International (when he was selling the TR2) and the reason they changed to separate master cylinders. In addition, they had installed a "Girling" rear axle as they wished to avoid breakages of half-shafts and leakage of oil onto the rear brakes - the known weaknesses of the "Lockheed" axle, as I know from experience! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Lay Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Valid point(s) Ian, I certainly did not think my reply through. I would imagine the M/C would be fine (or perhaps acceptable) with the original drum brake set up but as you so rightly say with a disc set up it would be easy to let the fluid drop below an acceptable level. I have had no problems at all with the brakes on our 2, original with 10" front & 9" rear drums. The linings are NOS with I assume an asbestos base and the stopping power is super. I am now going to tempt fate but even driving and braking hard I have not suffered with brake fade. I gather the modern lining material is not so good. Nigel (with TS952) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Valid point(s) Ian, I certainly did not think my reply through. I would imagine the M/C would be fine (or perhaps acceptable) with the original drum brake set up but as you so rightly say with a disc set up it would be easy to let the fluid drop below an acceptable level. I have had no problems at all with the brakes on our 2, original with 10" front & 9" rear drums. The linings are NOS with I assume an asbestos base and the stopping power is super. I am now going to tempt fate but even driving and braking hard I have not suffered with brake fade. I gather the modern lining material is not so good. Nigel (with TS952) My first TR2 (1962/3) was all-drum, and I did suffer serious brake fade from high speeds (above 90 mph) - but one could legally do that speed and I was a bit of a young hooligan then (just an old hooligan now)! Nowadays, one cannot legally drive that fast and, bearing in mind that the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, one is only dissipating half the energy going from 70 to zero as compared with 100 to zero - hence fade very unlikely. However, drums can grab when cold, causing the car to swerve to left or right on initial application. The old, asbestos, brake material did give a very progressive feel - the modern stuff requires a much harder push (but works well when hot), and that's probably the reason so many people fit power assistance nowadays (I haven't, even though I am a small fellow). Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brydon Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hi Rod Not wishing to be a killjoy, but I'd ask your Insurance Company if they are happy to provide cover on what is after all a hybrid brake system Damaging your pride and joy is one thing, facing a multi million pound claim against you having no liability cover is quite another. Kind regards Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Good point Andrew, it's always worthwhile highlighting modifications to an insurer - at least you've covered your back. There's no real problem in mixing Lockheed and Girling components, any more than there is in replacing any OE brake component with an aftermarket equivalent that's up to the job, or that uprates the system. One significant consideration can be front/rear brake balance, usually best solved by the introduction of a variable restrictor to the rear system. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I never had any problems on my TR2 with balance between the front discs (TR3) and rear drums, apart from the fact that the all too frequent oiling of the rear brakes (from seal failure) meant that often the effectiveness of the rear brakes was reduced! But, when working properly, the braking was superior to that of my brother's TR3 because his car had the 10" drums (mine were the 9" and narrower) and his would lock its rear wheels, which meant that control was lost. So, I don't think any sort of restrictor/limiter is necessary in this case. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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