had17462 Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Hi all, as you can see from the headline iam not brilliant on part names etc but learning,anyway got the engine on the bench and took the sump off , there wasn,t to much sludge in there,i have just taken the end cap off and the inside of it is a shade of bronze is this the shell? where are the thrust washers are they above the cap, also should the con rods slide on the crankshaft, sorry about all the questions , regards nick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Hi all, as you can see from the headline iam not brilliant on part names etc but learning,anyway got the engine on the bench and took the sump off , there wasn,t to much sludge in there,i have just taken the end cap off and the inside of it is a shade of bronze is this the shell? where are the thrust washers are they above the cap, also should the con rods slide on the crankshaft, sorry about all the questions , regards nick. yes yes and yes. the bronze is the shell, should be silver coulred but will have worn away. the thrust washers are above the cap one each side.and yes the conrods will move /slide on the crank. richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 yes yes and yes.the bronze is the shell, should be silver coulred but will have worn away. the thrust washers are above the cap one each side.and yes the conrods will move /slide on the crank. richard heres a photo you can just see the thrust washers. i presume your doing your engine up. i have posted this before. if you would like your rear bearing cap machining to take a third thrust washer. worth while improvement. contact me £20.00 plus post Quote Link to post Share on other sites
had17462 Posted October 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Thanks for the pics,i can see your washers at the top but i cant seem to see mine i will look again with a light,i would like to have this mod done i will pm you for your address etc, heres a picture of the crank looks like its been welded,what do you think. nick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolboy Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) Once you remove the rear most main ( crankshaft) bearing cap, you may not see the thrust washers themselves, because they are in the block half of the journal, but if you look closely you will be able to see the slot (channel) in which they reside.... Hopefully they are still in place. A nylon cable tie can be used to push the TW's around the crank enough to remove them. Be sure to notice that they come out with the oil retaining grooves facing the front and rear of the engine with the smooth sides facing one another. Edited October 3, 2009 by poolboy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Knight Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) heres a photo you can just see the thrust washers.i presume your doing your engine up. i have posted this before. if you would like your rear bearing cap machining to take a third thrust washer. worth while improvement. contact me £20.00 plus post Thats interesting. Assume it would be rear facing. How do you retain the TW in the cap ? Could there ever be variations in the depth of the block grove, which may then not match the new bearing cap ? Edited October 3, 2009 by Steve Knight Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Thats interesting. Assume it would be rear facing. How do you retain the TW in the cap ? Could there ever be variations in the depth of the block grove, which may then not match the new bearing cap ? Yes interesting I thought they needed to be pinned Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Thanks for the pics,i can see your washers at the top but i cant seem to see mine i will look again with a light,i would like to have this mod done i will pm you for your address etc, heres a picture of the crank looks like its been welded,what do you think.nick. no it nots welded .casting marks. to reply to the other posting could you measure the gap between the rear of the bearing cap and the crankshaft. il give a explantion of how i go about machining the cap. cheers richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
charlie74 Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 my t/w's were replaced with some of the scott helm's alloy washers this spring and in my conversations with him regarding a full round rear thrust washer, he told me that unless your car is highly modified and used in competition it really wasn't necessary. see:http://www.customthrustwashers.com/index.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Jones Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 my t/w's were replaced with some of the scott helm's alloy washers this spring and in my conversations with him regarding a full round rear thrust washer, he told me that unless your car is highly modified and used in competition it really wasn't necessary. see:http://www.customthrustwashers.com/index.html I'm not quite sure why competition use should be considered more challenging for the thrust washers. They are mainly there (or the rear one at least) to take the load from the clutch when your foot is on the pedal - something that occurs much more on a town-driven road car. I guess a competition clutch may have a stronger spring and thus put more force on the thrust washer but I'm not convinced it's that big a difference. In my opinion the biggest causes on thrust washer problems are starting the car with your foot on the clutch or possibly riding the clutch. If you examine a pair of thrust washers removed from a well used engine you will see that the rear one is invariably the more worn of the two due to the clutch loads. Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I'm not quite sure why competition use should be considered more challenging for the thrust washers. They are mainly there (or the rear one at least) to take the load from the clutch when your foot is on the pedal - something that occurs much more on a town-driven road car. I guess a competition clutch may have a stronger spring and thus put more force on the thrust washer but I'm not convinced it's that big a difference. In my opinion the biggest causes on thrust washer problems are starting the car with your foot on the clutch or possibly riding the clutch. If you examine a pair of thrust washers removed from a well used engine you will see that the rear one is invariably the more worn of the two due to the clutch loads. Nick also if you have the standard cooling fan up front. this will be pulling the crank forward all the time. richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Thats interesting. Assume it would be rear facing. How do you retain the TW in the cap ? Could there ever be variations in the depth of the block grove, which may then not match the new bearing cap ? in reply to your question. the thrust washer is loose in the cap but unable to fall out untill there is excessive wear. excatly the same as the original ones. yes there will be variations in the gap between bearing cap and crankshaft. i would need to know the following.with the correct amount of end float 6-8 thou.[ ie- set up with new thrust washers]. crank pushed forward touching the rear thrust washer. measure the gap between rear bearing cap and crank. if the gap is 15 thou. and a +5thrust washer is 100 thou i would need to cut a recess 85 thou in the bearing cap. this would leave the thrust washer 15 thou proud of the cap. lets say the end float ends up at 10thou.the new thrust washer will fall out when there is 76 thou end float. but by this time the thrust washers will be completly worn down to the steel backing and us. ntc asked if it should be pinned .no because i dont cut a full circle in the bearing cap. the original rests on the bearing cap as normal. if i did cut a full circle [which would be easier] it would need pinning. this isnt good in my opion as the only thing stopping both rear thrust washers from spinning is a couple of brass screws. richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard71 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Thats interesting. Assume it would be rear facing. How do you retain the TW in the cap ? Could there ever be variations in the depth of the block grove, which may then not match the new bearing cap ? Yup, Me & another forum member recently removed and stripped my engine and discovered the rear most main bearing cap had been repaired sometime in the engine's history. Just last week I got the block back from the machine shop, no machining was required to the thrust washer carrier or cap, but, the rear outside washer is +.030" and the inner is standard giving me .0085" end float (or so I'm told, I haven't began the rebuild yet). The historical repair to the cap was to skim off all the chewed up material, bolt in an insert and machine flush. Seems to have worked very successfuly. My engine must have had it's TWs neglected in the past. Richard. Edited October 21, 2009 by Richard71 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard71 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I don't have a BB or Haynes manual to hand. Can anyone tell me the maximum allowable crank end float? .011" springs to mind. Regards, Richard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) The historical repair to the cap was to skim off all the chewed up material, bolt in an insert and machine flush. Seems to have worked very successfuly. My engine must have had it's TWs neglected in the past. Richard. the new bit thats been bolted on is to stop the rear thrust washer from rotating and falling out. end float should be 0.006-0.008 thou according to haynes manual richard Edited October 21, 2009 by rpurchon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard71 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Yeah, I know, Just thought I would mention mine is one engine that had been neglected in it's past, and point out one particular method of repair. The .0085" I guess is the best end float they could acheive with available sizes, it'll be months before I get around to rebuilding, so plenty time to hunt around for something onr or two thou thicker. Edited October 21, 2009 by Richard71 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Yeah, I know, Just thought I would mention mine is one engine that had been neglected in it's past, and point out one particular method of repair. cheers no problem. a bit ott? you could emery paper a +5 down a few thou. if it had done that much damage to the cap, do you think the crank has been replaced. richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard71 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 cheers no problem. a bit ott? you could emery paper a +5 down a few thou. if it had done that much damage to the cap, do you think the crank has been replaced. richard Yeah, you would expect it to have made a mess of the crank too. To tell you the truth, I never inspected the crank properly, and in particular the thrust faces for signs of previous repair. I simply threw everything in the boot and shot off to the machine shop, they still have the crank & flywheel etc as they kinda made a balls of the balancing, that's another tale for another time. Richard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Knight Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) Yes there will be variations in the gap between bearing cap and crankshaft.i would need to know the following.with the correct amount of end float 6-8 thou.[ ie- set up with new thrust washers].crank pushed forward touching the rear thrust washer. measure the gap between rear bearing cap and crank.if the gap is 15 thou. and a +5thrust washer is 100 thou i would need to cut a recess 85 thou in the bearing cap.this would leave the thrust washer 15 thou proud of the cap. Ricard. This is not a very reliable improvement. The only way to do the job properly would be to measure the block grove depth and mark this against the cap bolted in place. Otherwise I do not see, when it arrives in the post, that you would know exactly where the cap is going to be positioned - within a thousandths of an inch. Your calculations (if accurate) would then only apply to this set of thrust washers. Most people would want the option of mixing washers of different thickness front / back, to set the end float, which I think should be max of 4 thou (8 is just too much). At any rebuild in the future who is going to know what the new cap requires, in relation to the block; we may need two different thicknesses, how can you even measure that. In the worst case scenario you could still be left with one (+ front) washer doing all the work. I like your idea of the washer captive in the cap .. but a better bodge would be to machine accurately for Toyota 6 cylinder washers which are thicker and have a location tag. Edited October 28, 2009 by Steve Knight Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) Yes there will be variations in the gap between bearing cap and crankshaft.i would need to know the following.with the correct amount of end float 6-8 thou.[ ie- set up with new thrust washers].crank pushed forward touching the rear thrust washer. measure the gap between rear bearing cap and crank.if the gap is 15 thou. and a +5thrust washer is 100 thou i would need to cut a recess 85 thou in the bearing cap.this would leave the thrust washer 15 thou proud of the cap. Ricard. This is not a very reliable improvement. The only way to do the job properly would be to measure the block grove depth and mark this against the cap bolted in place. Otherwise I do not see, when it arrives in the post, that you would know exactly where the cap is going to be positioned - within a thousandths of an inch. Your calculations (if accurate) would then only apply to this set of thrust washers. Most people would want the option of mixing washers of different thickness front / back, to set the end float, which I think should be max of 4 thou (8 is just too much). At any rebuild in the future who is going to know what the new cap requires, in relation to the block; we may need two different thicknesses, how can you even measure that. In the worst case scenario you could still be left with one (+ front) washer doing all the work. I like your idea of the washer captive in the cap .. but a better bodge would be to machine accurately for Toyota 6 cylinder washers which are thicker and have a location tag. the end float has already been set, to whatever clearance you want. the bearing cap is bolted in place. the crank is pushed forward touching the the upper thrust washer. the gap between the crank and the rear of the main bearing cap is whatever it is. how else could it be measured. good point about different washers on rebuilding.which would be twice as long. so if you had a std washer in the rear. the cap would have to be machined for a std washer.etc thats presuming the gap isnt too large ie oversize washers would have to go in the rear where youd put them anyway i only put down a +5 washer in my example because theyre 100 thou=easy example. i agree that it might not be to 1 or 2 thou.because if you asked 5 people to measure a gap with feeler gauges youd get 5 different measurements similar but not the same richard Edited October 28, 2009 by rpurchon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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