angelfj Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I am trying to establish if my car would have originally had a petrol tap. I have searched a number of books but have not found any record of when this tap was deleted. My guess is approx, TS50000, but not sure. Any comments? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 My 1958 TR3A with Comm. No. TS 27489 LO came with one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Satchwell Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I am trying to establish if my car would have originally had a petrol tap. I have searched a number of books but have not found any record of when this tap was deleted. My guess is approx, TS50000, but not sure. Any comments? My 59 tr3a TS46631 has one fitted very similar to Don's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 My 1958 TR3A with Comm. No. TS 27489 LO came with one. [/quot Yes, mine (TS 24528) is identical. I see that both Moss and Victoria British sell repro fuel taps. Anyone have any experience with these? Don, do you not use clamps on your fuel line hose? Bob Brennan S. Freeport, ME Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peterm Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hi, If you read Bill Piggots book, "Original Triumph TR2/3/33A", he seems to be of the opinion that the petrol tap was deleted somewhere around January 57 at Comm No TS15497. My Jan 61 TR3A did'nt have one in the late 60's. One was retro fitted in 2001 for some reason which I can't remember. Brand new from one of our regular suppliers, and it leaked almost from day one. The decision is all yours. (Fire extinguisher maybe) Cheers, peterm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I talked about it with Alan in the workshop where I fitted the tap on my TR. He suggested that -if your not too concerned about originality- should have a look in the catalog of a industrial supplier: valves, pipes etc. Perhaps cheaper, but certainly better quality. Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hi, If you read Bill Piggots book, "Original Triumph TR2/3/33A", he seems to be of the opinion that the petrol tap was deleted somewhere around January 57 at Comm No TS15497. My Jan 61 TR3A did'nt have one in the late 60's. One was retro fitted in 2001 for some reason which I can't remember. Brand new from one of our regular suppliers, and it leaked almost from day one. The decision is all yours. (Fire extinguisher maybe) Cheers, peterm Peter: 1957, TS15497 seems very early in production. Don Elliott has owned his early 3A, a 1958 model, Comm. No. TS 27489 LO , from new and it was dilevered with petrol tap. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hi, If you read Bill Piggots book, "Original Triumph TR2/3/33A", he seems to be of the opinion that the petrol tap was deleted somewhere around January 57 at Comm No TS15497. My Jan 61 TR3A did'nt have one in the late 60's. One was retro fitted in 2001 for some reason which I can't remember. Brand new from one of our regular suppliers, and it leaked almost from day one. The decision is all yours. (Fire extinguisher maybe) Cheers, peterm Hello peterm, Was it a repro fuel tap or another type? My fuel tap bracket is in great shape and I'm giving some thought to ordering a Moss replacement. If, however, they are prone to leakage, well maybe I should abandon my instinct to keep it original. Moss and others sell a braided stainless steel fuel line (589-180) that goes directly from the tap to the fuel pump which increases the appeal of keeping it original. Bob Brennan S. Freeport, ME Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Bob - When I did the full body-off restoration of my 1958 TR3A finishing in 1990, I put on a braided hose. In 1992 at TRA at Salt Fork in Ohio, the judges docked me a point because the original hose did not have the stainless steel braiding. The photo you see above was taken later than that as I changed back to the original style plain hose to be more "original". I have not lost any points since. TRA judges are very particular about fine detailed points like this, but if someone arrives for judging with no "petrol stop-cock" when he should have one, then the judges say "That's OK, because they often leak and being safety related, we don't dock points." But a braided hose which is stronger loses a point. I would have thought that a reinforced rubber fuel hose would be "safety related". But NO ! It often depends on whether the wife of that judge burnt his toast that morning. Hose clamps were never used on that rubber hose. The fuel pump only puts out about 4 psi and the hoses have never leaked. My TR3A came that way and if someone puts them on, they run the risk at TRA of not being "original". But hose clamps are acceptable by TRA on the later TR3As with the rubber hoses where they feed the float bowls as that "is a safety related and acceptable change". Go figure ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) My first TR3A (1958 TS29951) still had the original fuel tap when I bought it in 1972 and, like many others, I removed it quite soon as it leaked. There is a good piece on fuel taps in Section K4 of the Technicalities CDROM or book. Whilst it used to be common to use flexible rubber or plastic/nylon fuel pipe without clamps, I have found that modern rubber tubing is prone to seepage, even with clamps, and recommend fitting screw-type clamps and checking/tightening them regularly for the first 1000 miles. I don't know whether the problem is due to the composition of modern rubber or lead-free fuel or a combination of both, but I have had the problem on both TRs with new fuel pipes. Neither of our cars has a tap fitted at present, but I like Menno's solution. Meanwhile, I have just bought a £4 brake/fuel line clamp in Halfords and have decided to get a second to carry one in each car for emergencies. Knowing me, this will probably become the long-term solution. (I also find that carrying tools and spares tends to ward off problems, but that there is always another problem that you've not foreseen). Edited February 18, 2009 by BrianC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peterm Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi Bob, I guess it was a repro type. Original type construction, but still a repro! My 3A was only 8 years old when I had it and everything was as it left the factory. No fuel tap fitted, just a flexable fuel hose with no clips. The tap I fitted a few years ago, the one that leaked after a very short while came from Moss. I'm now back to a plain flexible fuel hose with fuel hose clips. Note; The ordinary water hose type clips are not ideal, they have a tendency, on small diameter hose to push the hose out of shape with the obvious risk. I also carry a clamp in case of emergency. I think I bought mine in Sears or Canadian Tyre, but the Halfords one look good, not too viscious. Cheers peterm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) I should also add that the one (clamp tool) I bought in Halfords was an all-metal one by Laser. They also had what presumably is the newer, improved orange plastic version at £5, but it looked far less sturdy and in fact the one I tried in store was broken in the pack. I'll be sticking to the old design - originality in all things! (If it ain't broke, why did they fix it?) Edited February 18, 2009 by BrianC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi Bob, I guess it was a repro type. Original type construction, but still a repro! My 3A was only 8 years old when I had it and everything was as it left the factory. No fuel tap fitted, just a flexable fuel hose with no clips. The tap I fitted a few years ago, the one that leaked after a very short while came from Moss. I'm now back to a plain flexible fuel hose with fuel hose clips. Note; The ordinary water hose type clips are not ideal, they have a tendency, on small diameter hose to push the hose out of shape with the obvious risk. I also carry a clamp in case of emergency. I think I bought mine in Sears or Canadian Tyre, but the Halfords one look good, not too viscious. Cheers peterm That pretty much cinches the argument (for me, anyway) to not replace the tap with a Moss repro. Safety trumps aesthetics, especially since my two sons have expressed an interest in driving it this summer. Damn the dreaded Originality Police and their burnt toast! TorontoTim suggested I look at the demontweeks website which is just loaded with neat stuff, but I would have no idea how to spec the order. I would love to go from the steel fuel line (Moss 588-260 Pipe, connector to tap) to a tap/filter/fuel pump and do it in braided ss without those "ordinary water hose type clips" you disfavor, peterm. Bob Brennan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 That pretty much cinches the argument (for me, anyway) to not replace the tap with a Moss repro. Safety trumps aesthetics, especially since my two sons have expressed an interest in driving it this summer. Damn the dreaded Originality Police and their burnt toast! TorontoTim suggested I look at the demontweeks website which is just loaded with neat stuff, but I would have no idea how to spec the order. I would love to go from the steel fuel line (Moss 588-260 Pipe, connector to tap) to a tap/filter/fuel pump and do it in braided ss without those "ordinary water hose type clips" you disfavor, peterm.Bob Brennan Bob: I have been thinking of one other option which we may take, and you might be interested. The petrol tap, as you know, has a reputation for leaking. Just ask Don Elliott about the incident when he visited here during VTR 2007 at Valley Forge, PA. What I have done is to take the tap (valve) apart and soldered in a plug. This results in the valve always being open with no fear of leaking. We will also add a functional manual shut-off valve under the tank in an easily accessible location. So, if you like the looks of the original tap but not the prospect of a fuel leak, you can do this. goo luck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Bob: I have been thinking of one other option which we may take, and you might be interested. The petrol tap, as you know, has a reputation for leaking. Just ask Don Elliott about the incident when he visited here during VTR 2007 at Valley Forge, PA.What I have done is to take the tap (valve) apart and soldered in a plug. This results in the valve always being open with no fear of leaking. We will also add a functional manual shut-off valve under the tank in an easily accessible location. So, if you like the looks of the original tap but not the prospect of a fuel leak, you can do this. goo luck Hello Frank, I like the solder idea; it puts the lead back in the gas! I'm not too crazy about "a functional manual shut-off valve under the tank in an easily accessible location". Easily accessible? Where exactly? And then you still have seven feet of fuel line full of gas, which may or may not siphon out. I don't remember Don volunteering that bit of history . But I really do like the looks of that brass tap. Bob Brennan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hello Frank, I like the solder idea; it puts the lead back in the gas! Never thought of that - good idea I'm not too crazy about "a functional manual shut-off valve under the tank in an easily accessible location". Easily accessible? Where exactly? And then you still have seven feet of fuel line full of gas, which may or may not siphon out. Maybe I should have said "accessible". Mind you not intended to deter theft, but mearly to facilitate maintenance. I don't remember Don volunteering that bit of history . But I really do like the looks of that brass tap. Bob Brennan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi Frank, When I disassembled the fuel tap to ponder the feasibility of your "solder the mother shut" idea, I wondered if it might make more sense to just replace the cork with a baffled teflon seal. I don't have any experience with the tap, but it looks to me that it is more prone to leakage in the up (open) position than in the down (closed position). The problem is ( as I see it), the tap is connected to a steel line from the tank and if the tap fails, you are up **** creek. So I don't see any future in the "keep it original argument". I think it was a crappy set up from the get-go. Sticking a shut-off somewhere in the nether regions of the fuel tank doesn't really get the job done when you're in a hurry. And if you have a fuel leak, you are damn well in a hurry! Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Hi Frank,When I disassembled the fuel tap to ponder the feasibility of your "solder the mother shut" idea, I wondered if it might make more sense to just replace the cork with a baffled teflon seal. I don't have any experience with the tap, but it looks to me that it is more prone to leakage in the up (open) position than in the down (closed position). The problem is ( as I see it), the tap is connected to a steel line from the tank and if the tap fails, you are up **** creek. So I don't see any future in the "keep it original argument". I think it was a crappy set up from the get-go. Sticking a shut-off somewhere in the nether regions of the fuel tank doesn't really get the job done when you're in a hurry. And if you have a fuel leak, you are damn well in a hurry! Bob I wonder if the motorcycle world could be of help as they have a similar type of tap underneath the tank on lots of older types. I was told that if you boil the cork up it will swell and seal off better. The main problem these days seems to be the quality of the cork. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Hi Stuart, Yes, I looked into the Harley catalog thinking the same thing, but a motorcycle petcock doesn't seem to be the same. I'm getting closer looking into hot rod plumbing. About four years ago, I realized that I would need more space and built a 26' x 40' post and beam "barn", two stories tall with enough height for a lift one day. My youngest son, who is now an architect in Manhattan and otherwise pretty bright, parked his moped in the new wooden barn. That's when I learned about fuel shutoff failure! One fine morning, I entered the building and was almost knocked over by the fumes. The moped's tank of gas was all over the floor. With everything we are hearing about E-10 gas and rubber, I'm thinking that ss braided teflon lines that speed shops sell is the best bet. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 During its first life, the petrol stop-cock on my 1958 TR3A leaked ever so slightly so I changed the cork in 1990 as I was finishing my restoration. The new cork leaked right from the start. I took it apart and you could see the veins in the cork from one end to the other. Stuart is right about the quality of the cork these days. As you know cork comes from the bark of cork trees and nature puts veins in everything. With all the good cork being used for good wine bottles, there is a shortage of good cork. So I did something like Bob is suggesting. For about $0.85, I bought a foot of black rubber fuel line from an auto supply shop and removed the cork and slid on a length of rubber (5/8" long or so). The OD of the hose was perfect for the ID of the valve. The ID of the rubber tube was too big, so I carved the bit of cork down so it was tight inside the rubber tube. This worked fine, but it was hard to turn off and turn back on. I assume that the rubber was swelling. So I left it "ON" all the time. I also had a machine shop make be a new threaded center rod out of stainless steel + a spare, just in case. The brass ones are prone to break off at the top where the screwdriver slot is. The steel ones are much stronger and you can really tighten them to compress the seal inside, just as you like it. This worked fine till I was in Yellowstone National Park in 2000 and it was gushing out. I was on the way to VTR in Portland, Oregon, convoying with Gary who has a nice red TR3A and he had a tube of "Seal-All". This smelt like the glue we used to use when we were boys and made model airplanes. I squeezed it all over the top knob and down the sides and it "fixed" the leak. When I got home (total mileage was 7252 miles), I made a new rubber seal as before. But I always thought that someday, I'd do one better. If cork is bad these days, there is a new syntheric "cork" used for wine bottles so I tested three of these new type corks in gasoline for months one winter. When they all survived, I made a new seal out of this new "cork" and it worked. Then I left for VTR in Penn. This was in 2007. When the "flood" of gas came out the top of the valve, as Frank mentions, I pulled out the center stem with the seal on it as quickly as I could and pushed in the spare I was carrying which still had the rubber tubing and cork seal on the spare long stem. This solved the problem. But I had not tested these new "corks" on gasoline containing 10% ethanol which by 2007 was the norm all over the USA. In Canada we didn't have this added to all the petrol - only some brands. There was no seal left. I assume that the ethanol had attacked the new "cork" and about 800 miles since I had put it in, it was only a lot of whitish granules that looked like salt or sugar. Maybe the heat from the engine had also helped cause this to happen. So I have kept to the rubber tubing type of seal for the "petrol stop-cock". And my spart center stem also has a rubber seal on it. If anyone comes up with a better solution, tests it, and if it works, I'll be glad to hear about it. Or I'll buy one. I thought of teflon, but I felt that it would be too hard to compess it to seal properly. Now you know the rest of the story. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 As if the cork and rubber isn't enough. This from the MG T-ABC Yahoo users' group: Greetings to all, Bob Stein wrote: "A good friend and fellow MG enthusiast also happens to be a Fuels Specialist with the EPA and a former mechanic. He informed me that the ethanol in most gas sold in the US eats away the solder seal of the brass floats. The float sinks, the car floods, and gas goes everywhere. He had a similar problem with one of his MGBs." I recently had a problem with one of my carb floats. It had a leak and filled and sank and of course as soon as you turn the key you have gas exiting through the overflow pipe. I chalked it up to an old float with a pinhole leak. Has anyone else had this problem as discussed by Bob, supposedly due to modern gas? If so what is the solution? Doug Pelton From The Frame Up, LLC 3754 E Nance Circle Mesa, AZ 85215 602-690-4927 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 The guys and gals who race Triumphs in the USA (Friends of Triumph or FOT) have reported this happening and someone reported that someone somewhere is working on a blow-moulded float with the same dimensions where the float will be made of a suitable material that will not be attacked by the petrol. FOT have an interesting site : - http://www.fot-racing.com/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Getting back to the fuel tap problem, I have discovered that the male thread on the tap, inlet and outlet is 1/2 '' fine SAE, which surprised me, as I thought it might be metric. The fellow at the speed shop suggested that it was Whitworth! Ditto the fuel pump - 1/2" fine SAE. The challenge for me will be to go from the 1/2" fine to 6 AN to use those fabulous braided stainless steel lines (teflon lined) with screw fittings at the ends. No hose clamps, and no vulnerable rubber hoses melting from E-10. BTW, this AN stuff has been around longer than our TR's. Anyone know what AN is an abbreviation for? Bob Brennan TS24528 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodri Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 I believe AN stands for Army and Navy, being an American military specification.....? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Brennan Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 I believe AN stands for Army and Navy, being an American military specification.....? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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