Telster Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hiya all. I was wondering if anyone can give me any advice - my footwells seem to be filling up with water whenever it rains - which is never good! As far as I can tell, it's somehow getting in through the scuttle top vent; I think I can see daylight through it from under the dash (I have a CR model with the mesh). Is this normal, or is something wrong/missing/broken? I notice the earlier CP models have a closeable lid which seems far more sensible if this is a common problem - can they be fitted easily to a CR? Finally - as a temporary fix - would I be doing any harm completely sealing up the vent for now? Many thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hello and welcome. You may have encountered one of Triumph's less feliticious design aspects, the 'Let's take the heater air in through a steel box that the rain can get into' brainwave. I suspect that what you can see is the sky through the rust holes in the bottom of the intake plenum as it's technically known. Although it doesn't usually rust there, usually it's at each end where the drains come out into the inner wing (another story.... ) If you search the Forum on: heater +plenum you'll probably get hits. Yes, you can seal it up by buying the metal lid - readily available - and its rubber seal, drilling two holes in the lid and screwing it down into the screw sockets that retain the plastic cover. Downside is that without an air intake, the heater won't really work. In fact, it really won't work. But at least your feet won't get wet. It is possible although not easy, to retrofit the lid properly with pop-up spring, some on here have done it, although it still lets the water in when the heater is in use. May need an 'orrible expensive weld repair. On the other hand, come to think of it, you really shouldn't be able to see daylight that way, perhaps someone has stolen the heater? Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hello and welcome. You may have encountered one of Triumph's less feliticious design aspects, the 'Let's take the heater air in through a steel box that the rain can get into' brainwave. I suspect that what you can see is the sky through the rust holes in the bottom of the intake plenum as it's technically known. Although it doesn't usually rust there, usually it's at each end where the drains come out into the inner wing (another story.... ) If you search the Forum on: heater +plenum you'll probably get hits. Yes, you can seal it up by buying the metal lid - readily available - and its rubber seal, drilling two holes in the lid and screwing it down into the screw sockets that retain the plastic cover. Downside is that without an air intake, the heater won't really work. In fact, it really won't work. But at least your feet won't get wet. It is possible although not easy, to retrofit the lid properly with pop-up spring, some on here have done it, although it still lets the water in when the heater is in use. May need an 'orrible expensive weld repair. On the other hand, come to think of it, you really shouldn't be able to see daylight that way, perhaps someone has stolen the heater? Ivor I am one of those that retrofitted the flap, its not that hard and most of the parts are available new. The only parts I had to source from the local hardware store were a couple of clips to anchor the spring which I installed with the help from Richard Crawley I believe who sent me a picture of his plenum innards. I have yet to reconnect the lever as in reality I only drive the TR in the summer and dont usually have any reason to open the flap. When we get into the late summer and the nights are cool I open the flap in advance as long as it isnt raining. What a dumb design this is and to put icing on the cake they replaced the closeable flap with a plastic grille to guarantee that the ends of the plenum, rocker panel and the bottom of the wing would rot out. Grr. Water on the brain is likely meningitis. Water on the foot is most likely a rotted out plenum drain tube attachment point. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telster Posted January 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks guys for such a quick response - that's very handy and I guess confirms my suspicions. So would sealing up the vent really really stop my heater working (it's kinda handy in this weather - if only as a demister!). It's not gonna kill the heater/fan or anything is it? I'm presuming the whole thing is far from air-tight if water's getting through! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks guys for such a quick response - that's very handy and I guess confirms my suspicions. So would sealing up the vent really really stop my heater working (it's kinda handy in this weather - if only as a demister!). It's not gonna kill the heater/fan or anything is it? I'm presuming the whole thing is far from air-tight if water's getting through! Pretty much. Other than though small gaps the only path for air to enter the TR6 heater is through the plenum and into a hole above the heater air entry point. I think there was a thread recently about turning this design into a fug stirrer but I dont recall if that was concluded. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telster Posted January 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Heh heh. Fug stirring's fine - I get more than enough fresh air - even in the rare occasions the roof is up! I see Rimmer Bros sell all the bits I need - whether I seal it permanently, or go for the opening mechanism. How does it work? Is there some sort of dash lever control on the CP models? http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/rimmer/triumph...t#Scuttle%20Top Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hi Telster, not sure about the daylight that you can see, but you shouldn't be able to. There is another problem that could occur. If you get debris into the plenum (leaves etc). This could block the drain pipe. Eventually the plenum fills to flow over the lip that feeds the facia vents. This then makes it way under the dash and pours onto your knees etc. It is easy enough to remove the flexible drain pipe and clean the plenum spout and the drain pipe.. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Heh heh. Fug stirring's fine - I get more than enough fresh air - even in the rare occasions the roof is up! I see Rimmer Bros sell all the bits I need - whether I seal it permanently, or go for the opening mechanism. How does it work? Is there some sort of dash lever control on the CP models? http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/rimmer/triumph...t#Scuttle%20Top Exactly. on an early RHD drive car there would be a lever close to your left knee up under the dash. You should already have the hole for that lever, I think we all got that. The lever is connected via a rod through the bulkhead to a tab on the underside of the lid. Then you reach under the dash and using superhuman effort you can open and close the lid until the plastic knob falls apart and then you simply add pain to the required effort as you now have to operate it just using the end of the metal lever. The lever is short so there is little mechanical advantage to help you overcome the spring. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Hiya all. I was wondering if anyone can give me any advice - my footwells seem to be filling up with water whenever it rains - which is never good! As far as I can tell, it's somehow getting in through the scuttle top vent; I think I can see daylight through it from under the dash (I have a CR model with the mesh). Is this normal, or is something wrong/missing/broken? I notice the earlier CP models have a closeable lid which seems far more sensible if this is a common problem - can they be fitted easily to a CR? Finally - as a temporary fix - would I be doing any harm completely sealing up the vent for now? Many thanks! Hi Telster Remove the battery what's it like under there? Neil Edited January 29, 2009 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telster Posted January 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 All okay under the bonnet - i.e. no holes behind battery etc. Clearly I need to investigate where the daylight is coming from though. Many thanks for all the pointers guys! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Maybe a less well realised aspect is that the plenum adds a fair bit of rigidity to the bulkhead itself. If it resembles paper lace, it’s probably not doing much in that respect & will affect the overall rigidity of the car; usually shows itself by varying degrees scuttle shake! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telster Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Right - had a look at that "daylight" and attached a pic. Plenum looks intact, but is just a shallow shelf, so I guess it must be not draining and overflowing? Can't work out how or where it's meant to drain! Are those tiny plastic tubes meant to somehow clear it?! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Right - had a look at that "daylight" and attached a pic. Plenum looks intact, but is just a shallow shelf, so I guess it must be not draining and overflowing? Can't work out how or where it's meant to drain! Are those tiny plastic tubes meant to somehow clear it?! The narrow plastic tube that you can see is the supply to the washer jets. The plenum drains are best seen from under the dash. You need to dive head first into the footwells with a flashlight and look at the very ends where the bulkhead meets the inner wing and you will see the short length of black hose about 3/4 inch outside diameter that is going from the plenum and through the inner wing to dump into the area closed off by the baffle plate. The area where the hose exits the plenum is what typically rots out due to poor drainage. So that bright patch that we see in the picture, where is that light coming from ?. Do you have a light source in the footwell and we are looking at carpet or is that bright patch coming from somewhere else ? Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Was composing “off line” & Stan has beaten me to it with more or less the same thing; but I’ll post anyway. The plastic tubes you can see are the screen wash jet tubes & have nothing to do with draining the plenum. The plenum runs the full width of the car & curves downwards to each side from the centre so the water drain off to each side. If you now look under the dash inside of the car you will (should) just be able to see a rubber tube, around 15mm diameter on each side, extending from a short steel pipe at the bottom of the plenum & disappearing into the inner wing; the water drains into this void (not a good idea as has already been stated), down onto the top of the cill & out to the road between the cill & outer wing. If your feet are getting wet it’s usually a sure sign that the bottom of the plenum has rotted out, this starts from each corner around the tube where water gets trapped but can extend some way along the plenum, to the centre in bad cases. The rectangular blob of light (if that’s what it is) looks rather uniform, almost as if it’s been cut out but why someone would do that is a mystery. You need to lie on your back with you head on the floor & underneath the dash with your legs up over the seat & have a good poke around under there with a screwdriver, if it’s rotten, the end will disappear taking lumps of rotten steel with it; you don’t want rust in your eyes so wear safety goggles! Edited February 2, 2009 by Richard Crawley Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TIMS Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Guys Looking at "the bright patch" it isn't that the access plate to the wiper box is missing, or not properly sealed in place, is it? Regards Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Guys Looking at "the bright patch" it isn't that the access plate to the wiper box is missing, or not properly sealed in place, is it? Regards Tim Looks pretty much like that to me. I have just looked at a bare shell here and from the angle of the photo Thats what it is, the depth of the plenum at that point wouldnt need much water or much of a breeze to overflow inside if those plates arent fitted and well sealed up. Stuart. Edited February 2, 2009 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Guys Looking at "the bright patch" it isn't that the access plate to the wiper box is missing, or not properly sealed in place, is it? Regards Tim Good thinking Tim. I had initially thought that the cover plates were further up the bulkhead than that bright patch but Looking again at the angle the picture was taken I think you may be right. Perhaps one of the screws is missing and the cover plate is twisted/loose and is letting in water (these do have some sealant around the edge to keep water out). That would be the best possible scenario, better than rotted drains !. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Guys Looking at "the bright patch" it isn't that the access plate to the wiper box is missing, or not properly sealed in place, is it? Regards Tim Good thinking; I was going to have a look for clues in the garage but the snows too deep! Edited February 2, 2009 by Richard Crawley Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telster Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Many thanks for all that folks. Yes - that bright patch is just the angle of the photo. It's bright because it was Sunny and the footwell was flooded with light, but the shape is a bit misleading. It seems to me the Plenum is shaped there as a shallow tray with no verticle member preventing overflow into the footwells. Well at least I know what the issue is now! I have blocked off the vent now and am quite happy to have a "fug-stirrer" in a dry(ish) car! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Hi Telster, in a previous thread from Ivor 88V8 I thought it was stated that the 6 can't work as a fug stirrer as the facia vents are not connected to the fan/gubbins or have I remembered it wrong. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Hi Telster, in a previous thread from Ivor 88V8 I thought it was stated that the 6 can't work as a fug stirrer as the facia vents are not connected to the fan/gubbins or have I remembered it wrong. Roger Both the facia & footwell vents are connected to the fan/gubbins (plastic Y connector) but on the heater output side. The heater draws fresh air in through the top where it’s connected directly into the plenum so in order to get air through the heater it would be necessary to make holes in the plenum allowing air inside the car to be sucked into the plenum, though the heater & out into the car again. Simply blocking off the vent won't turn it into a fug stirrer. Edited February 3, 2009 by Richard Crawley Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bald Rick Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 in order to get air through the heater it would be necessary to make holes in the plenum allowing air inside the car to be sucked into the plenum, though the heater & out into the car again. Simply blocking off the vent won't turn it into a fug stirrer. Richard What about if you removed the wiper wheelbox access plates, or convert then into re-circulating vent flaps? Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Richard What about if you removed the wiper wheelbox access plates, or convert then into re-circulating vent flaps? Tony That should work as long as the holes are large enough; basically the cross sectional area needs to allow sufficient air into the plenum to match what your trying to pump out through the heater. Without going to all the trouble of calculating the requirements, a pretty safe bet would be to ensure the area of the holes matches the area of the intake with the vent flap open. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Another way to achieve this would be to have the vent flap lever to switch between outside air (vent flap open, inspection plates closed), and recirculate, vent flap closed ( inspection plates open), this is the way I will probably go unless there are more forthcoming suggestions appearing. Tony Edited February 3, 2009 by Tonymill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telster Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Ideally yes! But the heater/demister appears to be working no worse that before I blocked off the vent, so I'm happy enough for now. (Handling however is all over the shop! Clearly blocking the vent has seriously compromised something. 20cm of snow could, perhaps, be another outside explanation...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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