TR5 oil seal leak

[Steady does it]

Hi,

My 1968 TR5 has an oil leak from the front of the engine block, I am told by those wiser than me that it is most likely the timing case/crankshaft oil seal.

I'm a bit of a mechanical novice, so some advice would be helpful.

 

Questions:

I guess the bonnet will have to come off to start with

Do I need to take the radiator out of the car to gain good enough access.

Do I require a puller to remove the crankshaft pulley

Does the seal press in from the outside of the timing case and do I need to remove the timing case to do this

Are there any unforseen difficulties

 

Thanks in anticipation

[foster461]

Hi,

My 1968 TR5 has an oil leak from the front of the engine block, I am told by those wiser than me that it is most likely the timing case/crankshaft oil seal.

I'm a bit of a mechanical novice, so some advice would be helpful.

 

Questions:

I guess the bonnet will have to come off to start with

Do I need to take the radiator out of the car to gain good enough access.

Do I require a puller to remove the crankshaft pulley

Does the seal press in from the outside of the timing case and do I need to remove the timing case to do this

Are there any unforseen difficulties

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

Hi there and welcome. You have several opportunities for oil leaks at the front. There is a gasket between the block and the front engine plate which is the least likely to just spontaneously start leaking. There is a gasket between the timing cover and the front plate which is a common source of leaks but will need to be replaced if you remove the cover anyway. There is the front crank seal which is a rubber seal pressed into the timing chain cover and finally there is the sump gasket and the front crank sealing block with the wooden or rubber wedges. You really need to figure out where the leak is coming from otherwise you could do a lot of work with no results.

 

If it is the front crank seal or the timing cover gasket you will need to drain the coolant AND drain the block as one of the timing cover bolts goes into the water jacket. Not sure of the layout of the TR5 but the more stuff you remove (bonnet, radiator etc) the easier the task is as the fan and pulley will have to come off as well as the timing cover. The front crank seal is pressed into the cover from the inside so the best plan would be to get a new seal, get a new timing cover gasket and replace both. Before refitting the front cover make sure the flange is not distorted especially around the bolt holes and use some non setting gasket dressing for the gasket.

 

You should not need a puller to remove any parts for this project. Only the lower timing gear sometimes need some assistance to get it off the crank and you wont have to touch that for this project.

 

Stan

[Steady does it]

Hi there and welcome. You have several opportunities for oil leaks at the front. There is a gasket between the block and the front engine plate which is the least likely to just spontaneously start leaking. There is a gasket between the timing cover and the front plate which is a common source of leaks but will need to be replaced if you remove the cover anyway. There is the front crank seal which is a rubber seal pressed into the timing chain cover and finally there is the sump gasket and the front crank sealing block with the wooden or rubber wedges. You really need to figure out where the leak is coming from otherwise you could do a lot of work with no results.

 

If it is the front crank seal or the timing cover gasket you will need to drain the coolant AND drain the block as one of the timing cover bolts goes into the water jacket. Not sure of the layout of the TR5 but the more stuff you remove (bonnet, radiator etc) the easier the task is as the fan and pulley will have to come off as well as the timing cover. The front crank seal is pressed into the cover from the inside so the best plan would be to get a new seal, get a new timing cover gasket and replace both. Before refitting the front cover make sure the flange is not distorted especially around the bolt holes and use some non setting gasket dressing for the gasket.

 

You should not need a puller to remove any parts for this project. Only the lower timing gear sometimes need some assistance to get it off the crank and you wont have to touch that for this project.

 

Stan

[Steady does it]

Hi Stan,

Thank you for your very prompt reply. I will follow your advice and remove everything that is 'in my way'. The one remaining question at this time is: do I remove the heavy cross member that crosses side to side between the pulley and the steering rack ? and if I do, does everything it ties in place remain there or will I have difficulty refitting it? Also, I have been told that there are two types of seal - early models had a seal fitted from the inside of the timing cover and later models a new seal that presses in from the outside - any comments.

 

Thanks again, much appreciated

[foster461]

Hi Stan,

Thank you for your very prompt reply. I will follow your advice and remove everything that is 'in my way'. The one remaining question at this time is: do I remove the heavy cross member that crosses side to side between the pulley and the steering rack ? and if I do, does everything it ties in place remain there or will I have difficulty refitting it? Also, I have been told that there are two types of seal - early models had a seal fitted from the inside of the timing cover and later models a new seal that presses in from the outside - any comments.

 

Thanks again, much appreciated

 

So I'm not that familiar with the TR5 engine bay but with the TR6 that cross tube would have to come out to remove the pulley and the timing cover. It is not a big deal, three bolts each side on the TR6 and this is just a brace and should slide out and slide back in (subject to the usual corrosion etc). I ie it is not under stress, nothing will go POING when you remove it..

 

If there is timing cover with a seal that is inserted from the outside I have never seen one and the Moss USA web site doesnt show it. Hopefully someone with a clue will chime in soon otherwise it will be obvious as soon as you remove the crank pulley. The seals are cheap, as is the timing chain tensioner which you also might want to inspect and replace while you have the timing cover off.

 

The nut that secures the crank pulley is torqued up pretty good so you may need to put the gearbox into gear and have a buddy stand on the brakes while you yank on a breaker bar to free it.

 

Make sure you remove all traces of the old gasket and the old oil seal and clean all surfaces. The new front oil seal should be lightly lubed with grease before fitting. I find it easier to insert the tube-like piece that mates with the seal surface after the timing cover has been fitted (you can just slide it in from the front before you fit the crank pulley) but make sure you note during disaasembly which way it is fitted and also which way the oil thrower ring is fitted.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

Hi Stan,

Thank you for your very prompt reply. I will follow your advice and remove everything that is 'in my way'. The one remaining question at this time is: do I remove the heavy cross member that crosses side to side between the pulley and the steering rack ? and if I do, does everything it ties in place remain there or will I have difficulty refitting it? Also, I have been told that there are two types of seal - early models had a seal fitted from the inside of the timing cover and later models a new seal that presses in from the outside - any comments.

 

Thanks again, much appreciated

 

Just to add to Stan's good advise ie it is not under stress, nothing will go POING when you remove it..

I would recommend that you do not jack the car uneven with the cross member removed

Edited September 7, 2008 by ntc

[Steady does it]

So I'm not that familiar with the TR5 engine bay but with the TR6 that cross tube would have to come out to remove the pulley and the timing cover. It is not a big deal, three bolts each side on the TR6 and this is just a brace and should slide out and slide back in (subject to the usual corrosion etc). I ie it is not under stress, nothing will go POING when you remove it..

 

If there is timing cover with a seal that is inserted from the outside I have never seen one and the Moss USA web site doesnt show it. Hopefully someone with a clue will chime in soon otherwise it will be obvious as soon as you remove the crank pulley. The seals are cheap, as is the timing chain tensioner which you also might want to inspect and replace while you have the timing cover off.

 

The nut that secures the crank pulley is torqued up pretty good so you may need to put the gearbox into gear and have a buddy stand on the brakes while you yank on a breaker bar to free it.

 

Make sure you remove all traces of the old gasket and the old oil seal and clean all surfaces. The new front oil seal should be lightly lubed with grease before fitting. I find it easier to insert the tube-like piece that mates with the seal surface after the timing cover has been fitted (you can just slide it in from the front before you fit the crank pulley) but make sure you note during disaasembly which way it is fitted and also which way the oil thrower ring is fitted.

 

Stan

 

Thank you both again.

 

A bit surprising, at least to me, that this problem should occur so soon. The car has won several Concours prizes since a complete rebuild at which time the engine was completely overhauled by Racetorations in the UK (no criticism of them intended). The car has covered less than 3000 miles since rebuild !

 

However, on the basis that these things can even happen to brand new cars, I will be philosophical about it.

 

This is the first time I have used the forum and I am impressed.

Thanks

[harrytr5]

Thank you both again.

 

A bit surprising, at least to me, that this problem should occur so soon. The car has won several Concours prizes since a complete rebuild at which time the engine was completely overhauled by Racetorations in the UK (no criticism of them intended). The car has covered less than 3000 miles since rebuild !

 

However, on the basis that these things can even happen to brand new cars, I will be philosophical about it.

 

This is the first time I have used the forum and I am impressed.

Thanks

 

 

If getting the starter motor out is more trouble than it is worth(to lock up the flywheel)I feed rope into the number one bore on compression stroke to lock up the engine when undoing and tor'quing up the crankshaft pulley bolt.

Regards Harry TR5 Nutter.

[foster461]

Thank you both again.

 

A bit surprising, at least to me, that this problem should occur so soon. The car has won several Concours prizes since a complete rebuild at which time the engine was completely overhauled by Racetorations in the UK (no criticism of them intended). The car has covered less than 3000 miles since rebuild !

 

However, on the basis that these things can even happen to brand new cars, I will be philosophical about it.

 

This is the first time I have used the forum and I am impressed.

Thanks

 

If this is a fairly new engine I would put some effort into finding out where the exact leak is. This is not trivial but there is a big difference between say the front crank oil seal and the joint between the front engine plate and the block. If any of the front engine interfaces fail they can all look very similar. At least verify that it is either the crank seal or the timing cover seal and eliminate the front plate to block gasket. I dont know of a simple way of doing this but since you have established that it is the front of the engine clean all traces of oil off the bottom of the timing cover and the engine and oil pan and run the engine or do whatever you do to provoke the seal while you (safely) observe the start of the flow. If it is the front crank seal it will have to flow down the timing cover. If it is the timing cover gasket or the sump gasket etc you wont have oil on the lower vertical surface of the timing cover but you will see evidence of it oozing out of a seam.

 

Also check that your crankcase ventilation system is working. If pressure builds in the crankcase it will push oil though otherwise good seals. What grade oil is in the engine ?

 

Is giving it back to Racetorations to diagnose and fix an option ?.

 

Stan

[BrianC]

Is giving it back to Racetorations to diagnose and fix an option ?.

It's always advisable to report problems to the supplier/rebuilder, especially a well-established one with an excellent reputation like Racetorations. You never know, they may have suffered similar failures due to a faulty batch of parts, but at least they will probably suggest checks you or they could make and come up with a mutually agreeable fix.

[Guest Wyn]

In theory, I couldn't agree more Brian. But practice can prove a little different to theory!

 

Wyn

[Guest ntc]

However, on the basis that these things can even happen to brand new cars, I will be philosophical about it.

 

Nice to here that for a change,just to try and help with this oil leak before you start taking the engine to pieces.

 

How long since the engine rebuild ?

What is the current oil pressure warm and cold ?

Is the car used only on short journey's ?

[Tom Fremont]

To the excellent foregoing advice I would add:

 

1) the tubular crossmember will slip out nicely if the car is jacked up on the frame cross member between the suspension towers ( but make sure to spread the load so as not to deform the frame ). Otherwise it's likely to fight extradition

 

2) I recommend replacing the steel sleeve under the front seal each time the seal is replaced - it's cheap and worth eliminating any fault there. I once had one of these with a rough patch on it - congenital defect, installed by the engine builder - but it leaked right away.

[Steady does it]

Well guys,

You have given me some good advice and I will start by contacting Racetorations today to discuss the problem and seek their opinion before doing anything else. My better half and I are off to the Isle of Skye tomorrow for a few days (not in the TR) so I won't have time to do anything until I return. In any event the TR5 will only be used a few more times before being laid up for the winter and I would plan to do this job along with a list of minor jobs over the winter.

 

In the meantime, in answer to the questions you raised:

 

The car is used on 50 - 150 mile runs at a time. Yesterday I checked the oil level carefully after an overnight stop and then enjoyed a 120-mile drive (a rare lovely day). I have now checked the oil level carefully again after another overnight park up and there was no measurable loss. Granted, it was only 120 miles with the maximum speed being an occasional 60MPH, but no level change and no drips on the floor overnight.

 

The oil pressure remains excellent even when fully warmed up, there is no blue exhaust smoke and the engine sounds sweet.

The oil usage is very small

It doesn't drip oil when parked up in the garage

The oil type used is Miller's Classic 20/50 although I have to admit to adding Wynns engine friction proofing additive - a throw back from my younger days when we added it to every engine, even the lawn mower! I can't see that being a problem though, as the Miller's oil local technical manager told me that they were thinking about adding it to their oils! Unless of course, you know differently.

 

Thank again

[foster461]

The oil usage is very small

It doesn't drip oil when parked up in the garage

 

Just wondering what led you to believe that it was leaking oil from the front crank seal ?

 

Stan

[Steady does it]

Just wondering what led you to believe that it was leaking oil from the front crank seal ?

 

Stan

 

Hi Stan,

On reflection the way I described it does seem odd! However, it has been using/losing some oil, but over longer periods between checking. I put it down to an older design of engine 'using' some oil. More importantly, the bottom of the cover is all wet with oil and there is a small bead of oil hanging there, which doesn't actually drip when the car is parked. On closer inspection it is also wet up the lower part of the front of the cover to around the seal area suggesting it may be coming from the seal. Also, a mechanic friend who was admiring the car and looking all over it drew my attention to the oily wet area. His view, without a thorough inspection, was that it was coming from the crank seal.

 

I have spoken with Racetorations owner Daryl this morning and he was extremely helpful and he agrees that it is most likely to be the seal and/or the cover gasket. Like you, he recommends changing both at the same time and although all of their engine rebuilds would also have renewed the seal extension, he suggests changing it anyway.

He also commented that a 'little' oil could look more than it is when it is making a mess!

 

 

I am happy with the consensus of opinion and will change the most likely culprits and see if that cures the problem. Otherwise, I remain a happy TR fiver.

 

Thanks again

[foster461]

Hi Stan,

On reflection the way I described it does seem odd! However, it has been using/losing some oil, but over longer periods between checking. I put it down to an older design of engine 'using' some oil. More importantly, the bottom of the cover is all wet with oil and there is a small bead of oil hanging there, which doesn't actually drip when the car is parked. On closer inspection it is also wet up the lower part of the front of the cover to around the seal area suggesting it may be coming from the seal. Also, a mechanic friend who was admiring the car and looking all over it drew my attention to the oily wet area. His view, without a thorough inspection, was that it was coming from the crank seal.

 

I have spoken with Racetorations owner Daryl this morning and he was extremely helpful and he agrees that it is most likely to be the seal and/or the cover gasket. Like you, he recommends changing both at the same time and although all of their engine rebuilds would also have renewed the seal extension, he suggests changing it anyway.

He also commented that a 'little' oil could look more than it is when it is making a mess!

 

 

I am happy with the consensus of opinion and will change the most likely culprits and see if that cures the problem. Otherwise, I remain a happy TR fiver.

 

Thanks again

 

Cool. So while it is possible to build a TR engine and tranny and OD and rear end that doesnt leak any oil it is unusual not to have some evidence of lube leaking out from somewhere. Its part of the character.. It sounds like you have a poorly fitting crank seal if you can see oil on the front cover and that would be worth fixing as it is inexpensive and pretty easy to do if not time consuming. On my TR6 it takes me about an hour to get to the point where I have the front cover in my hand and you should be able to do the whole job in a long afternoon.

 

Stan