currylager Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hello again i'm afraid. After following some very sound of advice from you TR guru's i bought a Mocal oil cooler stat from rimmers and cut the oil cooler pipes and placed it in the cooler circuit as directed on the installation leaflet. I checked the oil flow direction by cranking the engine and noting the oil flow installed the thermostat accordingly. When i start the car now the oil light takes a lot longer to go out and the oil pressure gauge is reading a lot lower than it was before so i'm thinking something is amiss here . Could someone in the know please clarify which outlet on the screw on oil filter assembly does the oil flow out of, so i can check i have this 100% right. The oil cooler was fitted to the car when i bought it, so i though i may as well use it, but the way i feel at the moment i feel like ripping it out James. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hi James, If you have the "H" type thermostat I don't know why it should make any difference which way the oil flows. Mine ( from Racetorations, don't know the brand, but 16 row cooler ) bypasses until the oil is hot, so no flow through the cooler. Once hot, I don't think it makes any difference whether the oil flows from left to right or vice-versa. Mine doesn't exhibit any additional delay in oil pressure from startup, nor a lower pressure at any rpm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Could someone in the know please clarify which outlet on the screw on oil filter assembly does the oil flow out of, so i can check i have this 100% right. The oil cooler was fitted to the car when i bought it, so i though i may as well use it, but the way i feel at the moment i feel like ripping it out James. Oh dear. I'm slapbang in the middle of fitting both spin-on and stat. The spin-on outlet is the one nearer the filter. Fitting the stat shouldn't make any difference to oiling. Is the filter downhill from the housing, or is it tilted upwards? I wonder if you have the right filter? I wondered myself which one should be used, I am just trusting that the TR Shop sent me the right one, but I don't fancy keep having to go to them for replacements every time. Have to check with MOCAL about that. Which stat do you have? Is it the pushon? - which the TR Shop sold me but MOCAL say is too small for a 2.5 litre engine, so I am now fitting the one with the BSP unions. I'll use the small one on an auto box. I'd have a talk with MOCAL about your oil pressure, they're very helpful. Ivor PS if you want to switch back to the canister filter, you can have mine. I'm also selling the cooler takeoff that went with it, but if you're in desperate need you can have it for free. After I check that my new one works OK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
currylager Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Oh dear. I'm slapbang in the middle of fitting both spin-on and stat.The spin-on outlet is the one nearer the filter. Fitting the stat shouldn't make any difference to oiling. Is the filter downhill from the housing, or is it tilted upwards? I wonder if you have the right filter? I wondered myself which one should be used, I am just trusting that the TR Shop sent me the right one, but I don't fancy keep having to go to them for replacements every time. Have to check with MOCAL about that. Which stat do you have? Is it the pushon? - which the TR Shop sold me but MOCAL say is too small for a 2.5 litre engine, so I am now fitting the one with the BSP unions. I'll use the small one on an auto box. I'd have a talk with MOCAL about your oil pressure, they're very helpful. Ivor PS if you want to switch back to the canister filter, you can have mine. I'm also selling the cooler takeoff that went with it, but if you're in desperate need you can have it for free. After I check that my new one works OK. Thanks for the offer Ivor, much appreciated. The stat is a push on type, but is the one Rimmers supply with their cooler kits and hence i thought it would be adequate for the job (perhaps not). The benefits of fitting of an oil cooler dont seem essential after reading the discussions on this subject, so i didn't want to spend a lot of money on it and the push on type saved having to buy new hose etc, so i went for that one. I might see how easy it is to obtain a piece of hose with some BSP unions, disconnect the cooler hose unions at the filter housing and fit a bypass tube to see if this improves the oil pressure and confirms my suspicions of a problem. I do have a non-oil cooler screw on filter conversion for a vitesse somewhere, so i could probably use that if i decide to omit the oil cooler. If i go on the scrounge i assume i will need two 1/2" BSP hose tail adapters to make the bypass pipe up?? James Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey Royal Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Hi James, i have just done the same as you and fitted a Rimmers oil stat push on (Mocal). I found the bottom union on the spin on adapter is flow from engine and top union is the return. I ended up having to replace my old hoses, and then could not undo the fittings on the oil cooler itself, result a u/s oil cooler. Replaced it with a Revington 13 row. I pre filled oil cooler . I havent noticed any probs, yet. Cheers Guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 i assume i will need two 1/2" BSP hose tail adapters to make the bypass pipe up?? Yes, taper seats. When i start the car now the oil light takes a lot longer to go out and the oil pressure gauge is reading a lot lower than it was before so i'm thinking something is amiss here . indeed. Finished connecting my spin-on + stat this evening, span the engine, no plugs, for over a minute in all - oil light still on. Primed through the pressure relief valve, another 30 secs, still no pressure. Then the gong went for dinner. So tomorrow, pre-fill the filter, remove the dizzy and see if I can find something to spin the oil pump, there was a thread about that a while ago have to look for it. What is it they say - if it ain't broke, break it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
currylager Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Hi James, i have just done the same as you and fitted a Rimmers oil stat push on (Mocal). I found the bottom union on the spin on adapter is flow from engine and top union is the return. I ended up having to replace my old hoses, and then could not undo the fittings on the oil cooler itself, result a u/s oil cooler. Replaced it with a Revington 13 row. I pre filled oil cooler . I havent noticed any probs, yet. Cheers Guy Thanks Guy i will have a look and check if my flow direction is correct. I did disconnect one of the unions on the filter housing and cranked the engine to see if oil was returning via the stat, and i was getting a return, so i suppose the only explanation could be a flow restriction perhaps??. I'm glad you've had more luck than me . I think the only way i will convince myself there is a problem is to bypass the cooler and stat circuit and see if the oil pressure improves. I'm hoping a friend in the maintenance department will help me source some pipework. James. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
currylager Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Yes, taper seats. indeed. Finished connecting my spin-on + stat this evening, span the engine, no plugs, for over a minute in all - oil light still on. Primed through the pressure relief valve, another 30 secs, still no pressure. Then the gong went for dinner. So tomorrow, pre-fill the filter, remove the dizzy and see if I can find something to spin the oil pump, there was a thread about that a while ago have to look for it. What is it they say - if it ain't broke, break it? That thread sounds very useful on oil pump operation, if you need some help on breaking non-broken things i'm your man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 That thread sounds very useful on oil pump operation, if you need some help on breaking non-broken things i'm your man Maybe I've unbroken mine. The oil light still wouldn't extinguish on the starter, so I went to take the oil filter off and fill it, couldn't get it off no room without using the oil filter-destroying wrench, what nincompoop installed this with no room to work? Oh, it was me....... Realised I could fill the filter through the outlet from the spin-off housing. Took the pipe off - oil there already. So the system must be primed. Start the engine - oil pressure instant. But when cold, no more than 70psi. At 2,000rpm - 55psi, and 25psi at idle. Haven't run the oil to hot yet. I suppose it's logical that adding a cooler circuit will extend the time to reach full pressure, more volume to fill up. Same happens with a remote filter. But the ultimate pressure should be the same. So I'll be interested to see what pressure I have fully hot, and what you find in your bypass experiment. Actually, I wonder if your ultimate pressure will be a bit less, if you bypass a restrictive oil stat that must create a smidgeon of back pressure, but I doubt you'll be able to see it on the gauge. Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 But when cold, no more than 70psi. At 2,000rpm - 55psi, and 25psi at idle.Haven't run the oil to hot yet. Not good. Mine with 72000 miles on the clock does 80 psi at idle when cold, 100 psi > 2000 rpm ( 20W-50 Kendall ). As posted before, no delay in pressure, and nothing but equal or higher pressures than prior to fitment of the cooler. I gather some cooler/stat systems are better than others... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Mine with 72000 miles on the clock does 80 psi at idle when cold, 100 psi > 2000 rpm ( 20W-50 Kendall ). As posted before, no delay in pressure, and nothing but equal or higher pressures than prior to fitment of the cooler. are better than others... Mmmmm. So long as I get 40/50psi at 2,000 rpm I'll be content, hopefully I'll be able to take it out on the road and find out when I get through resewing the new seatbelt. In fact, as I now have an oil stat, the oil doesn't go through the cooler until hot , and I'm sure it didn't get that hot in the garage, checked the pipes by hand in fact. So I'm looking forward to seeing what Currylager finds at the weekend. Over here btw, Kendall is a mint cake, not sure what oil pressure that would give but the exhaust would smell nice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Ivor, Just for fun remove, clean and replace the oil PRV. Once mine stuck partially open and gave frightening readings at normal speeds ( but would achieve 80+ psi over 4000 ). Yes, it's now more difficult with the 'stat there, but still a piece of Kendall ( cake ) relatively speaking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
currylager Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Hi James, i have just done the same as you and fitted a Rimmers oil stat push on (Mocal). I found the bottom union on the spin on adapter is flow from engine and top union is the return. I ended up having to replace my old hoses, and then could not undo the fittings on the oil cooler itself, result a u/s oil cooler. Replaced it with a Revington 13 row. I pre filled oil cooler . I havent noticed any probs, yet. Cheers Guy It sounds like that is the type of thermostat i fitted to mine. When i got home i decided to try and get the engine oil hot to allow the stat to open and while i was doing this i noticed the oil pressure sat at a low 20 psi and stayed that way irrespective of engine speed too, which is strange. When the oil got hot the pressure dropped further and the oil light started to flicker, so engine off immediately, now i was really worried. I then removed the oil filter adapter and replaced it with an adapter with no oil cooler attachments and re-fitted the old oil filter, on start up the oil pressure sat at 65 psi (hot oil) even with the adaptor o rings leaking and not fully sealed and the pressure now varied in accordance with engine speed. Surely this proves the oil stat must be Knackered and i feel like launching it up the garden. I dont know if there is any way i could prove it's knackered and whether i'd have a chance of getting a refund from Rimmers?? or not??. Anyhow i'm really pleased it's not something sinister with the engine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 When the oil got hot the pressure dropped further and the oil light started to flicker, so engine off immediately, now i was really worried. I then removed the oil filter adapter and replaced it with an adapter with no oil cooler attachments and re-fitted the old oil filter, on start up the oil pressure sat at 65 psi (hot oil) even with the adaptor o rings leaking and not fully sealed and the pressure now varied in accordance with engine speed. Surely this proves the oil stat must be Knackered and i feel like launching it up the garden. I dont know if there is any way i could prove it's knackered and whether i'd have a chance of getting a refund from Rimmers?? or not??. I'm sure Rimmers would give you a refund, especially if you mention that it's public on the Forum. However, I still suggest you speak to Mocal about it, after all it's their product not Rimmers so I'm sure they'll take an intelligent interest. 0208 568 1172 I don't understand why the stat would drop the pressure.... Still haven't heated my oil, spent the day sewing.... zzzzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
currylager Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 I'm sure Rimmers would give you a refund, especially if you mention that it's public on the Forum. However, I still suggest you speak to Mocal about it, after all it's their product not Rimmers so I'm sure they'll take an intelligent interest. 0208 568 1172 I don't understand why the stat would drop the pressure.... Still haven't heated my oil, spent the day sewing.... zzzzz I'll give Mocal a ring this morning and get their take on this one . Just Waiting for them to open while putting several layers of clothing on, will brave it outdoors today, have several projects on the go, i will be pleased when this is sorted. Its typical how something i would have thought would have been a five minute job is now eating up the hours, summers only just round the corner Quote Link to post Share on other sites
piman Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Hello 88V8, did you add more oil to the engine to compensate for the oil that is in the oil cooler circuit? I know this is illogical, but my Triumph has lower pressure cold when the oil level drops. (I don't mean seriously low.) It does have a baffled sump though so that may have some bearing on it? As my engine is mildly modified and intended for hard driving I fitted an oil cooler, and an oil temperature gauge which tells me, even in summer that I have no need of an oil cooler. So if you are thinking of fitting one, fit a temperature gauge first. You may find that you don't need the cooler. Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 did you add more oil to the engine to compensate for the oil that is in the oil cooler circuit? I know this is illogical, but my Triumph has lower pressure cold when the oil level drops. (I don't mean seriously low.) As my engine is mildly modified and intended for hard driving I fitted an oil cooler, and an oil temperature gauge which tells me, even in summer that I have no need of an oil cooler. So if you are thinking of fitting one, fit a temperature gauge first. You may find that you don't need the cooler. Alec Thankyou Alec, yes topped up the oil. My modded engine already had a cooler as from 1976, but no gauge. I did suspect that the cooler was unnecessary most of the time, hence the installation of an oil stat, especially coming as I do from seven years of 205 GTI ownership where sludging of the over-cooled oil was a real pain. As you say perhaps I should just have fitted a gauge, or ditched the whole thing. I think that fitting a cooler to cure a 'problem' you don't know if you have, is what Nelson Riedel calls "ready, fire, aim". I'm now peering at the Mocal catalogue which in the front gives quite a lot of info about pressure drop altho not much precise use to me as it's relative to flow rate and I can't find the flow rate of the TR oil pump anyway.... but with 1/2" tube the max drop even at 13 gpm (I very much doubt it does 13gpm) would only be 8psi which is neither here nor there. On the other hand the pipe run is unusually long in the TR, with the oil starting its journey at the back of the engine - the longer the pipe the more the drop. But the oil pipe I have fitted is a little larger dia than before, which should slightly improve the pressure compared to the installation as was, and the stat is the same bore so errm ... I think I'll have to call Mocal as well... and with the spin-on conversion I only have room for a tiny filter unless I remake the pipe to the clutch slave.... oh dear, as Currylager says, a 5 minute job, the fatal urge to 'improve' things. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
currylager Posted January 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Thankyou Alec, yes topped up the oil. My modded engine already had a cooler as from 1976, but no gauge. I did suspect that the cooler was unnecessary most of the time, hence the installation of an oil stat, especially coming as I do from seven years of 205 GTI ownership where sludging of the over-cooled oil was a real pain. As you say perhaps I should just have fitted a gauge, or ditched the whole thing. I think that fitting a cooler to cure a 'problem' you don't know if you have, is what Nelson Riedel calls "ready, fire, aim". I'm now peering at the Mocal catalogue which in the front gives quite a lot of info about pressure drop altho not much precise use to me as it's relative to flow rate and I can't find the flow rate of the TR oil pump anyway.... but with 1/2" tube the max drop even at 13 gpm (I very much doubt it does 13gpm) would only be 8psi which is neither here nor there. On the other hand the pipe run is unusually long in the TR, with the oil starting its journey at the back of the engine - the longer the pipe the more the drop. But the oil pipe I have fitted is a little larger dia than before, which should slightly improve the pressure compared to the installation as was, and the stat is the same bore so errm ... I think I'll have to call Mocal as well... and with the spin-on conversion I only have room for a tiny filter unless I remake the pipe to the clutch slave.... oh dear, as Currylager says, a 5 minute job, the fatal urge to 'improve' things. I spoke to Mocal on Saturday morning (poured my heart out) and they were very helpful and they said it was highly unlikely that the Stat could be defective, but they did say as another TR reg member has said, is that the push on type of Stat is not suitable for 2.5 engines. When i explained that i had ordered the stat off Rimmers TR6 catalogue they said they would be in touch with the supplier to advise them that this Stat is not Tr6 compatible. Any way Mocal have very kindly offered to adapt my pipework to fit a more suitable stat and also check the push on stat for any defects, which i doubt because i could find no blockages on the unit. Sunday was a lovely day, but no running TR, will be pleased when all this is sorted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I spoke to Mocal on Saturday morning (poured my heart out) and they were very helpful - will be pleased when all this is sorted. Yes, me too. I'm sure you'll see a big improvement with the larger stat. I have their 1/2" OT2 fitted. It was easy to mount, btw, using the bracket provided and the rearmost bolt of the tubular X-member, plus a Z-shaped bracket which obligingly came with some new seatbelts I just bought. Took the car out for the very first time today, 2000rpm oil pressure steady at 50psi hot and about 20psi idle. Only did 20 miles, depending how it is when even hotter may then loop out the cooler, see if any difference..... Anyway, fed up with it fttb, leave well enough alone, on to something else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey Royal Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I spoke to Mocal on Saturday morning (poured my heart out) and they were very helpful and they said it was highly unlikely that the Stat could be defective, but they did say as another TR reg member has said, is that the push on type of Stat is not suitable for 2.5 engines. When i explained that i had ordered the stat off Rimmers TR6 catalogue they said they would be in touch with the supplier to advise them that this Stat is not Tr6 compatible. Any way Mocal have very kindly offered to adapt my pipework to fit a more suitable stat and also check the push on stat for any defects, which i doubt because i could find no blockages on the unit. Sunday was a lovely day, but no running TR, will be pleased when all this is sorted. Bloody great, i have got the same push on ot/1 stat, which i got from Rimmers, i have sent them an e mail. If its not suitable why sell it Not happy, will let you know the outcome. Cheers Guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
currylager Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Bloody great, i have got the same push on ot/1 stat, which i got from Rimmers, i have sent them an e mail. If its not suitable why sell it Not happy, will let you know the outcome. Cheers Guy I would love to know how you got on, i'll see what Mocal come back with first, once they receive my bits, i also notice Moss sell both types of stat in their catalogue too, its of great concern if one of these possibly incorrectly supplied devices could Knacker an engine (who'd pay?). I too will be glad when i can fit and forget Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 i also notice Moss sell both types of stat in their catalogue too, its of great concern if one of these possibly incorrectly supplied devices could Knacker an engine (who'd pay?). TR Shop sell them as well. All people who should know better. Be interesting to see if they flag them up as only suitable for Spridgets, or withdraw them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 TR Shop sell them as well. All people who should know better.Be interesting to see if they flag them up as only suitable for Spridgets, or withdraw them. i have a 1/2" push on stat, not fitted yet.i was going to fit it before traveling down to stoneleigh there is a right and [3] wrong ways to fit them according to the instructions. was the stat plumbed in wrong? richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 i have a 1/2" push on stat, not fitted yet.i was going to fit it before traveling down to stoneleighthere is a right and [3] wrong ways to fit them according to the instructions. was the stat plumbed in wrong? richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 That's the one the TR Shop sold me, and the one I believe Currylager has described. He certainly reckoned he'd plumbed it right. It's just too small dia I fear, and as I now know, small = pressure drop. Same with an oil cooler - the fewer the rows the more the pressure drop. So here we have yet another subject about which I've reluctantly learned more than I wanted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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